So who's the village idiot?

[LaurasOtherHalf]

The interview with Ron was replayed on the Sky F1 show tonight, though in the interests of the thread there seemed to be a bit of good natured fun poked at Jonny Herbert's newly thatched bonce.

Fair play to him though he seems to take being the joker of the pack in his stride

[rallycross]

Don't forget that EJ did a fair bit of racing himself before setting his team up.
There an old interview here of EJ describing a lap of Pheonix park in his Chevron Atlantic ( these had a 1600cc BDA 200+ bop engine);
EJ with real hair in this clip!

http://youtu.be/HLch2Mvm2oE

Edited by rallycross on Sunday 12th July 11:53

[Fonz]

back in the day EJ with some real hair sat in a real / proper car (bright yellow even then!) on a proper "micky mouse" track. Sad how the world has moved on, but there we go. I'd like to see some of todays starts have a head to head in machinery like that.

[VolvoT5]

EJ may be a bit of an idiot but I think he has a valid point re: McLaren... they are living on past glory with arrogant management (Ron) that is past its best.

Every year Mclaren talks the talk but it hasn't won a constructors since 1998.... The performance of the tema and Ron's management over the last couple of years has made Martin Whitmarsh (widely derided at the time) look like a genius.

[andyps]

VolvoT5 said:

EJ may be a bit of an idiot but I think he has a valid point re: McLaren... they are living on past glory with arrogant management (Ron) that is past its best.

Every year Mclaren talks the talk but it hasn't won a constructors since 1998.... The performance of the tema and Ron's management over the last couple of years has made Martin Whitmarsh (widely derided at the time) look like a genius.

OK, it's still a while ago but they did win the constructors championship in 2008, just that a certain person found a way to take it from them. Last year they were restricted partly by the fuel they were using and partly by a year of preparing for an engine change, most of the issues this year relate to Honda and it was Whitmarsh who did the deal with them. It must be hard to develop a chassis when there is limited information about the running of the car due to the engine issues, both power and reliability.

[VolvoT5]

andyps said:

OK, it's still a while ago but they did win the constructors championship in 2008, just that a certain person found a way to take it from them. Last year they were restricted partly by the fuel they were using and partly by a year of preparing for an engine change, most of the issues this year relate to Honda and it was Whitmarsh who did the deal with them. It must be hard to develop a chassis when there is limited information about the running of the car due to the engine issues, both power and reliability.

I thought Ferrari won the constructors relatively comfortably in 2008? Spygate in 07 do you mean? Even then I thought Ferrari would have edged it by a couple of points despite the DQ for McLaren?

Anyway fact is they haven't actually "won" a constructors title since 1998. Yes they have 1 driver title since 1998 ....... hardly impressive considering their claim of being a top team.

[andyps]

VolvoT5 said:

I thought Ferrari won the constructors relatively comfortably in 2008? Spygate in 07 do you mean? Even then I thought Ferrari would have edged it by a couple of points despite the DQ for McLaren?

Anyway fact is they haven't actually "won" a constructors title since 1998. Yes they have 1 driver title since 1998 ....... hardly impressive considering their claim of being a top team.

Sorry, you are correct, it was 2007. McLaren drivers 218 points, Ferrari drivers 204 so a fairly convincing win. McLaren had been docked 15 points in Hungary due to the FIA meddling with an in-team issue, McLaren almost certainly would have appealed but Mosley's vindictiveness made it pointless.

Take the 2007 out of the equation and Ferrari have only won one drivers and constructors championship since 2004 so they aren't doing all that well either if that is the basis for a view on success.

[VolvoT5]

andyps said:

Sorry, you are correct, it was 2007. McLaren drivers 218 points, Ferrari drivers 204 so a fairly convincing win. McLaren had been docked 15 points in Hungary due to the FIA meddling with an in-team issue, McLaren almost certainly would have appealed but Mosley's vindictiveness made it pointless.

Take the 2007 out of the equation and Ferrari have only won one drivers and constructors championship since 2004 so they aren't doing all that well either if that is the basis for a view on success.

So what you are saying is if Mclaren had been allowed to go unpunished for obtaining confidential data from other teams they might have successfully appealed their penalty received in Hungry 2007 which would have given them the championship.................... giving them a grand total of 2 titles in 17 years.

I don't think using Ferrari as the benchmark for success is going to impress anyone either. Although I noticed Mclaren tried to do that at Silverstone - apparently happy they are now only 1.5 secs off Ferrari... completely ignoring the fact that Ferrari were > 1 second off the leaders at Silverstone.

[Adrian W]

Hamilton is looking like the village idiot at the moment, couldn't even read the dress code on his invitation

[andyps]

Gaz. said:

They had the opportunity to use the Petronas oils but chose not to.

They had a contract with Mobil which covered the oils and fuel they could use.

VolvoT5 said:

So what you are saying is if Mclaren had been allowed to go unpunished for obtaining confidential data from other teams they might have successfully appealed their penalty received in Hungry 2007 which would have given them the championship.................... giving them a grand total of 2 titles in 17 years.

I don't think using Ferrari as the benchmark for success is going to impress anyone either. Although I noticed Mclaren tried to do that at Silverstone - apparently happy they are now only 1.5 secs off Ferrari... completely ignoring the fact that Ferrari were > 1 second off the leaders at Silverstone.

It's an old discussion but you presumably missed the point that in any other occasion where similar confidential information was taken either no punishment took place (Renault is a good example) or those taking the information were punished (Toyota). And there has never been a case where a dispute within a team which affected only that team and absolutely no one else has been punished by the FIA with constructors points removed. Anyone would think there was a nazi in charge who didn't want a non-white man to win but fortunately there was a judge in the UK who ruled that there was no nazi connection whatsoever

[anonymous-user]

andyps said:

Gaz. said:

They had the opportunity to use the Petronas oils but chose not to.

They had a contract with Mobil which covered the oils and fuel they could use.

VolvoT5 said:

So what you are saying is if Mclaren had been allowed to go unpunished for obtaining confidential data from other teams they might have successfully appealed their penalty received in Hungry 2007 which would have given them the championship.................... giving them a grand total of 2 titles in 17 years.

I don't think using Ferrari as the benchmark for success is going to impress anyone either. Although I noticed Mclaren tried to do that at Silverstone - apparently happy they are now only 1.5 secs off Ferrari... completely ignoring the fact that Ferrari were > 1 second off the leaders at Silverstone.

It's an old discussion but you presumably missed the point that in any other occasion where similar confidential information was taken either no punishment took place (Renault is a good example) or those taking the information were punished (Toyota). And there has never been a case where a dispute within a team which affected only that team and absolutely no one else has been punished by the FIA with constructors points removed. Anyone would think there was a nazi in charge who didn't want a non-white man to win but fortunately there was a judge in the UK who ruled that there was no nazi connection whatsoever

Oh dear, what a sad post. As you say

[spunkytherabbit]

Some Gump said:

I mainly dislike EJ because he's a bullst artist, and goes out of his way to be awkward to current team personnel. Why should a viewer respect him, when he's failing to show any respect to e.g Domenicalli, who presided over so much success (relative to EJ).

You can ask difficult questions in a far less crappy manner - see any interview from the Radio le Mans team with whoever just got beat, for example.

I echo this. Never more clearly demonstrated after Massa's accident. EJ stands there and says 'I've just being told by a little bird that Massa has just had a little bump on the head but is fine and is talking to the medical team' (or words to that effect) and DC calls him out there and then for lying saying he was standing by EJ the whole time and didn't see anyone come up to him. EJ's words 'these things just come to me'.

When in actual fact Massa was fighting for his life. EJ lied to big himself up and for all his faults I don't think Ron Dennis would stoop to that. From that day on I've sneered every time I have seen EJ and switched him off.

[benters]

its about time McLaren built there own engine, surely with all the brains they have they could sort this and sell a few to other teams too.

[rohrl]

benters said:

its about time McLaren built there own engine, surely with all the brains they have they could sort this and sell a few to other teams too.

McLaren have no experience whatsoever in building engines either for F1 or road cars. They have neither the personnel nor the equipment to consider building an engine. They are a car constructor, not an engine manufacturer.

[benters]

rohrl said:

McLaren have no experience whatsoever in building engines either for F1 or road cars. They have neither the personnel nor the equipment to consider building an engine. They are a car constructor, not an engine manufacturer.

I am well aware of what they are, what they do, but given their existing problems centre around the power unit it must at least encourage them to review this. If the weakest link in the chain is not themselves, then they and others who adopt the same policy will always be at the mercy of their third party contributors.

Surely it cannot be beyond them to hire/set up a facility given that they don't seem to have a money issue ?

just a thought

[Auntieroll]

If designing and development of an F1 powertrain was solely dependant on finance then surely Renault ,Ferrari and Honda should be in a much more competetive place.
The expectation that the shambles that is currently McLaren could even organise a competetive engine design
in a useable timescale is totally unrealistic, who would risk £500 million with their excruciatingly poor performance of the past few years?
BTW I am a McLaren fan !

[Auntieroll]

If designing and development of an F1 powertrain was solely dependant on finance then surely Renault ,Ferrari and Honda should be in a much more competetive place.
The expectation that the shambles that is currently McLaren could even organise a competetive engine design
in a useable timescale is totally unrealistic, who would risk £500 million with their excruciatingly poor performance of the past few years?
BTW I am a McLaren fan !

[Auntieroll]

If designing and development of an F1 powertrain was solely dependant on finance then surely Renault ,Ferrari and Honda should be in a much more competetive place.
The expectation that the shambles that is currently McLaren could even organise a competetive engine design
in a useable timescale is totally unrealistic, who would risk £500 million with their excruciatingly poor performance of the past few years?
BTW I am a McLaren fan !

[btcc123]

These new F1 engines are very complex and lets not forget that Mercedes started their engine at the beginning of 2010 where as Honda started early in 2014.Mercedes have a 4 year head start so its going to be a couple of years before Honda are competitive in my opinion.

The only light at the end of the tunnel the head of Mercedes engines said that with the tokens they have for this winter he could completely redesign the engine.So if they can do it perhaps Honda can as well.

[shirt]

benters said:

rohrl said:

McLaren have no experience whatsoever in building engines either for F1 or road cars. They have neither the personnel nor the equipment to consider building an engine. They are a car constructor, not an engine manufacturer.

I am well aware of what they are, what they do, but given their existing problems centre around the power unit it must at least encourage them to review this. If the weakest link in the chain is not themselves, then they and others who adopt the same policy will always be at the mercy of their third party contributors.

Surely it cannot be beyond them to hire/set up a facility given that they don't seem to have a money issue ?

just a thought

they could quite easily pay ricardo to develop and build them an engine as they have done for the roadcar program. however there are two main barriers as i see it:

1] what use is having an f1 derived engine for their road car division.
2] the massive loss of cash for the f1 team brought in by the engine partner.