Will McLaren survive their Honda contract?

[numtumfutunch]

This has been on the Beeb all day, comments??

http://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/0/formula1/34164674

[FeelingLucky]

nobody ever says numtumfutunch

[numtumfutunch]

FeelingLucky said:

nobody ever says numtumfutunch

You've never read the Guardian have you?

(Why couldnt I be called William?)

[andyps]

revrange said:

Gaz. said:

Toyota got a suspended sentence, no $100m fine or exclusion from the championship etc, and did it twice in four years. Honda were approached with the same material who told Stepney to go away.

Sorry so whats the point with honda? They were approached and said bugger off? How could they be fined for that!

Wasn't it suggested that Stepney and Coughlan were working together, hoping to take the material to jobs at Honda?

And it isn't as if McLaren were approached with the material, Stepney didn't drive up to Woking with a folder under his arm and say to the receptionist "I've got this, will you as Mr Dennis if he would like it" and get a yes response. The reality was somewhat different.

[FeelingLucky]

andyps said:

revrange said:

Gaz. said:

Toyota got a suspended sentence, no $100m fine or exclusion from the championship etc, and did it twice in four years. Honda were approached with the same material who told Stepney to go away.

Sorry so whats the point with honda? They were approached and said bugger off? How could they be fined for that!

Wasn't it suggested that Stepney and Coughlan were working together, hoping to take the material to jobs at Honda?

And it isn't as if McLaren were approached with the material, Stepney didn't drive up to Woking with a folder under his arm and say to the receptionist "I've got this, will you as Mr Dennis if he would like it" and get a yes response. The reality was somewhat different.

Completely agree.
Whilst I accept the race team and big Ron where in the dark about all this (it was Ron after all who blew the whistle), I think it's fair to say the test team were in it up to their neck, including Alonso AND de la Rosa.

[thegreenhell]

numtumfutunch said:

This has been on the Beeb all day, comments??

http://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/0/formula1/34164674

I think it's been fairly clear from the results that McLaren have a relatively decent chassis, with points in Monaco and Hungary. They will have had to try to take drag, and therefore downforce, off the car at other circuits to try to minimise the straight line speed deficit, which will not have shown the chassis in the best light.

However, I think Benson has made 2+2=300 in his assessment of the actual power deficit. If it really was 300 bhp down on the longer straights then I think they'd be several seconds behind even the Manors, no matter how good the chassis.

[kambites]

Surely if they coudln't maintain full electric drive all the way down the straights, the correct thing to do would be to use it all at the start, in which case we'd actually see them slowing down towards the ends of the straights. Don't the commentators have access to enough telemetry to pick that up?

Even if they don't. you'd imagine we'd see it as they almost kept up with the competition for the first half of the long straights then suddenly dropped away half way along?

[RYH64E]

The topic heading is 'Will McLaren survive their Honda contract?', to which the answer must be yes. The more interesting question is whether they survive as a mid-table team like Sauber and Force India, or whether they're ever likely to be able to beat Mercedes, Ferrari and Red Bull and get back to their championship winning ways. Judging by recent performance, not just this year but for the last few seasons, that's not looking likely to happen any time soon.

[007 VXR]

Just read, Ron turned down 43mil a year from Johnny walker in 2013 for title sponsor Wtf!!

[swisstoni]

I'm beginning to think Ron is slightly delusional nowadays. Being a perfectionist and sticking to your guns, like the hero amongst villains he sees himself, is one thing but shooting yourself in the foot because you are too rigid to compromise in adversity is another.

[RYH64E]

I think that everyone is agreed that performance in F1 is largely linked to funding (and increasingly, engine), the teams with bigger budgets usually do best. If you consider the main sources of funding for an F1 team there are 1) Support from a much larger parent company using the sport for promotional purposes, 2) Performance related payments from the F1 prize fund, 3) Sponsorship, 4) Pay drivers, 5) Merchandising, plus whatever I've missed. McLaren don't appear to be getting much from any of these funding sources, so they've got a big, expensive to run and seriously underperforming operation to maintain, and to get back to the front means spending at the same rate as Mercedes, Ferrari and Red Bull, for however long it takes.

Unless Honda decide to dig deep, and I'm not sure why they would (if they're paying for the engine development and funding the team they might as well go the whole hog and set up Team Honda) then getting back to the front is going to be something of a challenge, as Williams have found out over the last few decades. I can't see them being happy trundling round as a low cost, mid-field team, but what are the options?

[MartG]

Sky are reporting that McLaren are asking for Arai to be replaced

http://www.skysports.com/f1/news/12479/9981224/mcl...

[WestyCarl]

MartG said:

Sky are reporting that McLaren are asking for Arai to be replaced

http://www.skysports.com/f1/news/12479/9981224/mcl...

Not sure that will help.

The Japanese are technically very good, however the culture and methodical working ways means that speed of development is not quick. In the modern era of F1 no Japanese maker has got to grips with F1 despite them having lots of money (Toyota, Honda).

I can't see this working but don't see any other options for big Ron.

[aeropilot]

WestyCarl said:

In the modern era of F1 no Japanese maker has got to grips with F1 despite them having lots of money (Toyota, Honda).

You could add Yamaha to that list as well.

[VolvoT5]

I still find it hard to believe that chassis is only 0.3 off Mercedes - I mean the car does not look good to drive at all and if they really are 300 HP down would they really be even within the 107% rule?

I think Mclaren are in a deep hole at the moment and it is hard to see a way out and I'm not sure Ron Dennis is the man to lead them out either.

[London424]

VolvoT5 said:

I still find it hard to believe that chassis is only 0.3 off Mercedes - I mean the car does not look good to drive at all and if they really are 300 HP down would they really be even within the 107% rule?

I think Mclaren are in a deep hole at the moment and it is hard to see a way out and I'm not sure Ron Dennis is the man to lead them out either.

There's no way they are 300 hp down. Just not possible.

The question is, are they having to take off so much downforce that it looks awful in the corners just to be running where they are at the moment?

[IforB]

London424 said:

VolvoT5 said:

I still find it hard to believe that chassis is only 0.3 off Mercedes - I mean the car does not look good to drive at all and if they really are 300 HP down would they really be even within the 107% rule?

I think Mclaren are in a deep hole at the moment and it is hard to see a way out and I'm not sure Ron Dennis is the man to lead them out either.

There's no way they are 300 hp down. Just not possible.

The question is, are they having to take off so much downforce that it looks awful in the corners just to be running where they are at the moment?

That seems very probable. If they are 100 or so BHP down, then the only way at a place like Monza to not get completely stuffed is to have stuff all downforce. Everyone would have been on low levels, but if you've got a horsepower advantage like Merc do, then you can give yourself an easier time everywhere, which over a long race means you have an even bigger advantage.

McLaren and Honda look to be heading for a serious falling out already. I suspect that like any situation, there is a bit of fault on all sides, but Spa and Monza have shown where the biggest part is missing and that's basic power.

The tailspin and poor attempts at saving place from Arai are just disastrous when you are dealing with the bearpit that is the F1 media. He's taken a bad situation and made it worse. I suspect he'll be heading back to Japan soon and someone else taking his place. It just seems as if Honda weren't ready for F1 yet. The engine is under-developed and they can't manage the fall out and look like rabbits in the headlight.

[Smollet]

I can't help thinking it won't last into 2017 unless there's a major upturn next year. We might see a McLaren Renault if things go really pear shaped as I can't see MB supplying them with their commitments elsewhere and a McLaren Ferrari?

[rdjohn]

WestyCarl said:

The Japanese are technically very good, however the culture and methodical working ways means that speed of development is not quick. In the modern era of F1 no Japanese maker has got to grips with F1 despite them having lots of money (Toyota, Honda).

You can also add BMW and Ford (Jaguar). Renault as a works team have probably under performed.

Brinxworth built good race engines before Merc bought in. They also bought into the collective culture created by Brawn, BAR and Tyrrell as well as the wasted investment of Honda. Their smartest move was just to provide the money, much like FIAT Chrysler does with Ferrari.

[RYH64E]

rdjohn said:

WestyCarl said:

The Japanese are technically very good, however the culture and methodical working ways means that speed of development is not quick. In the modern era of F1 no Japanese maker has got to grips with F1 despite them having lots of money (Toyota, Honda).

You can also add BMW and Ford (Jaguar). Renault as a works team have probably under performed.

Brinxworth built good race engines before Merc bought in. They also bought into the collective culture created by Brawn, BAR and Tyrrell as well as the wasted investment of Honda. Their smartest move was just to provide the money, much like FIAT Chrysler does with Ferrari.

I thought that Renault had a pretty good record as a works team, they were usually there or there abouts and won a couple of WCCs in the 2000s.

It's hard to blame Honda for all of McLaren's ills, yes the engine is underpowered but even when McLaren had the best engine on the grid they weren't competitive. Whilst 2014 looks like a triumph compared to 2015 they finished 5th with just 181 points compared to Mercedes with 701 and Red Bull (with the underpowered and unreliable Renault engine) on 405. There's an awful long way to go if McLaren expect to beat Mercedes.