Will McLaren survive their Honda contract?
Discussion
rdjohn said:
RYH64E said:
In the same way that the current Mercedes is actually a Tyrrell-Honda-Brawn with an Ilmor engine?
Not quite, the Renault engine building facility has always been entirely Renault's effort, even when they were called Monchrome. The chassis, rarely have.http://www.mecachrome.com/
Scuffers said:
this is getting serious now, starting to honestly fear for their survival...
Not sure i fear for survival, but in terms of being a top F1 team, their budget will be well short of Merc/Ferrari/Red Bull. This will eventually tell in performance.If reports two more sponsors are off are true, real hammer blow for the team. I think they need to drop the PR, and just admit this year is a write off and focus on 2016.
The only reason for not doing this i guess is you know 2016 is going to be much of the same and you would have double egg on your face....
revrange said:
Not sure i fear for survival, but in terms of being a top F1 team, their budget will be well short of Merc/Ferrari/Red Bull. This will eventually tell in performance.
If reports two more sponsors are off are true, real hammer blow for the team. I think they need to drop the PR, and just admit this year is a write off and focus on 2016.
The only reason for not doing this i guess is you know 2016 is going to be much of the same and you would have double egg on your face....
Well at least the engine can't be worse next year... but then again with 4 Merc teams and maybe 5 Ferrari powered teams...If reports two more sponsors are off are true, real hammer blow for the team. I think they need to drop the PR, and just admit this year is a write off and focus on 2016.
The only reason for not doing this i guess is you know 2016 is going to be much of the same and you would have double egg on your face....
so, taking a step back...
we are now watching the start of the end of competitive engines in F1.
at current rate, we may well be looking at Renault and Honda throwing the towel in, leaving just Merc and Ferrari, and how much longer will that last for?
How sustainable is this? they are already the most expensive power plants in history.
Who still thinks these engine rags are a good idea?
we are now watching the start of the end of competitive engines in F1.
at current rate, we may well be looking at Renault and Honda throwing the towel in, leaving just Merc and Ferrari, and how much longer will that last for?
How sustainable is this? they are already the most expensive power plants in history.
Who still thinks these engine rags are a good idea?
Scuffers said:
Who still thinks these engine rags are a good idea?
Surely though, it's not the engine regs as such it's the powertrain regs?If you got rid of the stupid eco hybrid nonsense and just had engines, you'd remove most of the complexity and expense - and probably remove the manufacturer interest as well
which would seem to be a win-win situation IMHO.Afterall, the mid 70's was effectively Formula DFV vs. Ferrari.
aeropilot said:
Surely though, it's not the engine regs as such it's the powertrain regs?
If you got rid of the stupid eco hybrid nonsense and just had engines, you'd remove most of the complexity and expense - and probably remove the manufacturer interest as well which would seem to be a win-win situation IMHO.
Afterall, the mid 70's was effectively Formula DFV vs. Ferrari.
yes, sorry, should have said powertrain...If you got rid of the stupid eco hybrid nonsense and just had engines, you'd remove most of the complexity and expense - and probably remove the manufacturer interest as well
which would seem to be a win-win situation IMHO.Afterall, the mid 70's was effectively Formula DFV vs. Ferrari.
difference between now and the 70's was it did not cost stupid money to design/make an engine (relatively), as in the money needed was within corporate bounds of a marketing budget.
Now, you're going to need the thick end of $1Bn and 2-3 years to come up with a powertrain, and, nobody in their right minds is going to do that (ask AUDI for details!).
I can honestly see Honda throwing the towel in, and I don;t think it would take much more for Renault to follow.
This then just leaves Merc and Ferrari, and just how long will they keep up the power race?
aeropilot said:
If you got rid of the stupid eco hybrid nonsense and just had engines, you'd remove most of the complexity and expense - and probably remove the manufacturer interest as well which would seem to be a win-win situation IMHO.
But you wouldn't - at least not directly. Couldn't go back to 2.4 v8s easily so you would be looking at another generation of engines. which would seem to be a win-win situation IMHO.But the problem isn't the engines. The engines are bloody amazing. The FIA has done a rubbish job of communication just how amazing they are - reliable from pretty much race 1, more power, use half the fuel, etc.
Loosen up the tokens a bit more and bring back more testing and we might see some different races.
Vaud said:
But you wouldn't - at least not directly. Couldn't go back to 2.4 v8s easily so you would be looking at another generation of engines.
But the problem isn't the engines. The engines are bloody amazing. The FIA has done a rubbish job of communication just how amazing they are - reliable from pretty much race 1, more power, use half the fuel, etc.
Loosen up the tokens a bit more and bring back more testing and we might see some different races.
Does the average F1 viewer really care how reliable or economical the engines are and why couldn't they easily bring back the V8s*? But the problem isn't the engines. The engines are bloody amazing. The FIA has done a rubbish job of communication just how amazing they are - reliable from pretty much race 1, more power, use half the fuel, etc.
Loosen up the tokens a bit more and bring back more testing and we might see some different races.
Surely more tokens and testing is just going to cripple the smaller teams even more? - they can barely find the finance to race as it is, without adding the expense of further testing.
- I would rather the V10s if we are going to take a step backwards
NRS said:
ralphrj said:
Smollet said:
I can't help thinking it won't last into 2017 unless there's a major upturn next year. We might see a McLaren Renault if things go really pear shaped as I can't see MB supplying them with their commitments elsewhere and a McLaren Ferrari? 
There won't be a McLaren-Renault. If Renault stay in F1 next year it will be as a Renault owned team (either Lotus or Toro Rosso). They aren't going to supply any teams with customer engines. article said:
It is understood that it has ruled out being an engine supplier to customer teams next year, which has implications for its second outfit Toro Rosso. That leaves Renault with two options: buy Lotus, where a deal is poised to be agreed, or leave F1 altogether, which a source suggests remains a possibility.
VolvoT5 said:
Does the average F1 viewer really care how reliable or economical the engines are and why couldn't they easily bring back the V8s*?
Surely more tokens and testing is just going to cripple the smaller teams even more? - they can barely find the finance to race as it is, without adding the expense of further testing.
If you really want to take a step back just say its an open formula for configuration and engines of 3.5litres bring back the ferrari V12s Surely more tokens and testing is just going to cripple the smaller teams even more? - they can barely find the finance to race as it is, without adding the expense of further testing.
- I would rather the V10s if we are going to take a step backwards
Scuffers said:
so, taking a step back...
we are now watching the start of the end of competitive engines in F1.
at current rate, we may well be looking at Renault and Honda throwing the towel in, leaving just Merc and Ferrari, and how much longer will that last for?
How sustainable is this? they are already the most expensive power plants in history.
Who still thinks these engine rags are a good idea?
They're not working out very well are they? Who'd have thought... I can't think of a single positive thing that they add to the show.we are now watching the start of the end of competitive engines in F1.
at current rate, we may well be looking at Renault and Honda throwing the towel in, leaving just Merc and Ferrari, and how much longer will that last for?
How sustainable is this? they are already the most expensive power plants in history.
Who still thinks these engine rags are a good idea?
VolvoT5 said:
Does the average F1 viewer really care how reliable or economical the engines are and why couldn't they easily bring back the V8s*?
Surely more tokens and testing is just going to cripple the smaller teams even more? - they can barely find the finance to race as it is, without adding the expense of further testing.
I quite like how technical and strategic F1 has become, it used to be a bit more ultimate power at any cost, make big screaming engines and massive amounts of aero trickery, go as fast as you can for as long as you can. Surely more tokens and testing is just going to cripple the smaller teams even more? - they can barely find the finance to race as it is, without adding the expense of further testing.
- I would rather the V10s if we are going to take a step backwards
I think there's a place for powerful engines and good aero, but I like that they've introduced hybrid technology and turbo'd engines. I like that they've introduced no refuelling, I dont mind lift and coast because it's strategy on when you're going to pull out some good racing and when you're resting.
In the 3000 metres, you dont just go out of the blocks as fast as you can til you finish, that's not what it's about. You pick a pace and a place and save energy then turn it up and down when you need to.
What I like about F1 is that it's often a great showcase for leading and sometimes bleeding edge technology advances that can pay off massively later down the line. It's not quite there yet in F1, but on the flip side neither is Formula E.
As for the question about how long McLaren and Honda are paired for, there's some reporting that they've asked for Arai to be removed. I think that either Honda or McLaren should do press stuff, but not both. Really it should be McLaren doing the talking, even if it's corporate nonspeak from Ron Dennis. McLaren really need to drop the arrogance and accept where they are, there's no corner they're going to magically turn in the next race (I'll eat my Skittles if I'm wrong) and they'll probably have at least one rookie driver next year as there's no point paying two big names.
I think if I was Dieter Mateschitz I'd have been on the phone to Honda after Melbourne with a development offer and a supply contract for 2016/17, that'd actually help Honda more than what McLaren are capable of at the moment as they dont have the car under them that they think they do
There will be no split, yes 2015 is a write off but there is no way Honda can be as bad in 2016 with all the data they have and the time to learn and evolve there hybrid system (which seems to be the main problem)
Media is blowing it well out although I do believe there is plenty of heated discussions behind closed doors
Here are 2 pics from the Honda Unit Forum on F1 tech website showing the difference in size MGU-K
Looks like Honda's is 50% smaller then the Merc
Media is blowing it well out although I do believe there is plenty of heated discussions behind closed doors
Here are 2 pics from the Honda Unit Forum on F1 tech website showing the difference in size MGU-K
Looks like Honda's is 50% smaller then the Merc
Edited by Logie on Tuesday 8th September 10:04
Edited by Logie on Tuesday 8th September 10:05
VolvoT5 said:
Does the average F1 viewer really care how reliable or economical the engines are and why couldn't they easily bring back the V8s*?
Surely more tokens and testing is just going to cripple the smaller teams even more? - they can barely find the finance to race as it is, without adding the expense of further testing.
Viewers are widely defined... my aged mum still watches - she was asking me if she should get a hybrid car... but probably the exception (you can discuss tyre wars with her)Surely more tokens and testing is just going to cripple the smaller teams even more? - they can barely find the finance to race as it is, without adding the expense of further testing.
- I would rather the V10s if we are going to take a step backwards
If we were having a new engine I'd go for 1.5l turbos with unlimited quali boost and limited race boost?
London424 said:
There's no way they are 300 hp down. Just not possible.
The question is, are they having to take off so much down force that it looks awful in the corners just to be running where they are at the moment?
I think all things being equal Honda are ~11% down on power, whatever that equates to. I base that on the max velocities that the Merc powered cars were achieving. If Mclaren had taken off even more wing to mitigate their poor top speed then maybe even a bit worse than that. The question is, are they having to take off so much down force that it looks awful in the corners just to be running where they are at the moment?
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/sport/motorsport/formul...
I feel really bad for them; they've been a staple in F1 for many years.
I feel really bad for them; they've been a staple in F1 for many years.
theAmerican said:
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/sport/motorsport/formul...
I feel really bad for them; they've been a staple in F1 for many years.
You feel bad for Mclaren?!I feel really bad for them; they've been a staple in F1 for many years.
I find it hard to feel much sympathy with them tbh... I think they have been poorly managed and incredibly arrogant for the last 5 or 6 years really..... it is hardly surprising sponsors don't want to pay £20 mill a year to be associated with a losing team that gives off such negative vibes.
Vaud said:
aeropilot said:
If you got rid of the stupid eco hybrid nonsense and just had engines, you'd remove most of the complexity and expense - and probably remove the manufacturer interest as well which would seem to be a win-win situation IMHO.
But you wouldn't - at least not directly. Couldn't go back to 2.4 v8s easily so you would be looking at another generation of engines. which would seem to be a win-win situation IMHO.You have the base engine design already - you'd only be stripping away the eco nonsense and changing to suit them running as IC only with associated revisions to ECU's and such like. So need to go back to square one so shouldn't be a huge cost - in relative terms.
As someone else posted - we could go back to having some proper F1 turbo nutterness again
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