Will McLaren survive their Honda contract?
Discussion
CraigyMc said:
You don't seem to understand what the tokens are, judging from that post. Sorry.
They allow for certain areas of the PU to be homologated for use. Each engine is made of homologated parts. Redesigned parts aren't allowed on the engines unless they are submitted to the FIA for homologation, and that costs the manufacturer engine development tokens. There's no way for McLaren/Honda to go beyond their limit with a simple sporting penalty. Once they've used their tokens for the season, they need to wait until next season to fit any redeveloped parts.
Honda might already have a race winning engine available - but they'd not be allowed to fit it within the token limits for this year.
The engine is divided into 66 tokens, of which a budget is permitted for redesign (next year, each manufacturer can develop the engines up to 32 tokens worth of changes).
I don't have the time to write out precisely how this works, but here's a great article from Matt Somers which explains it. http://www.somersf1.co.uk/2015/03/tokens-comparing...
Now - Mclaren taking penalty points is for fitting more than 4 of any specific PU component to either car in the 2015 season, which is entirely unrelated to engine development token use.
Craig
correct...They allow for certain areas of the PU to be homologated for use. Each engine is made of homologated parts. Redesigned parts aren't allowed on the engines unless they are submitted to the FIA for homologation, and that costs the manufacturer engine development tokens. There's no way for McLaren/Honda to go beyond their limit with a simple sporting penalty. Once they've used their tokens for the season, they need to wait until next season to fit any redeveloped parts.
Honda might already have a race winning engine available - but they'd not be allowed to fit it within the token limits for this year.
The engine is divided into 66 tokens, of which a budget is permitted for redesign (next year, each manufacturer can develop the engines up to 32 tokens worth of changes).
I don't have the time to write out precisely how this works, but here's a great article from Matt Somers which explains it. http://www.somersf1.co.uk/2015/03/tokens-comparing...
Now - Mclaren taking penalty points is for fitting more than 4 of any specific PU component to either car in the 2015 season, which is entirely unrelated to engine development token use.
Craig
However, considering the situation with PU's globally, the FIA are likely to look favourably at a request from Honda to start next season with a 100% new PU.
They are perfectly entitled to use the reliability issues from this year to circumvent the token system and start next year with a 'working' PU.
sirtyro said:
Just to understand....over the winter can Honda completely change the engine without having to worry about tokens or is the current homologation for next year as well?
No, they cannot change the whole engine.They can change about half of the engine (32 tokens of 66).
The original concept for the tokens thing was that the manufacturers would have to develop within their token budget (presumably using all of it), before the season started and then homologate the engine for each season in February, then would be permitted no changes at all in-season.
In-season development came about simply because Ferrari pointed out that there was no date set for homologation of the whole engine in a strict reading of the 2015 F1 rules (this was in itself just an FIA cockup).
Each of the existing manufacturers had already used most of their 2014 to 2015 token budget prior to the season start, and the average of points left over from the 32 (9) was what Honda were allocated for in-season development.
In 2016 in-season development has been retained and written explicitly into the rules because otherwise Renault and Honda would be even more screwed than they already are. It could have driven Renault out of the sport (your engine is crap, and even though you know how to fix it, you haven't the tokens left to implement the fixes: you're screwed).
That's also the reason why so many tokens are available (32 is a lot more than was originally envisaged for 2016 - it was originally going to be 25, but again the higher limit has been retained for Honda and Renault).
The law of diminishing returns says that the worst performers will find more performance than the leaders. It'll get closer, over time.
Craig
Scuffers said:
correct...
However, considering the situation with PU's globally, the FIA are likely to look favourably at a request from Honda to start next season with a 100% new PU.
They are perfectly entitled to use the reliability issues from this year to circumvent the token system and start next year with a 'working' PU.
That'd be changing the rules and moving the goalposts, which is obviously entirely possible in modern F1. However, considering the situation with PU's globally, the FIA are likely to look favourably at a request from Honda to start next season with a 100% new PU.
They are perfectly entitled to use the reliability issues from this year to circumvent the token system and start next year with a 'working' PU.
sirtyro said:
Just to understand....over the winter can Honda completely change the engine without having to worry about tokens or is the current homologation for next year as well?
The problem is the winter off season doesn't actually last very long does it? They are back racing mid March and there will be numerous tests before that. More Bad News- TAG Heuer Boss confirming that they will move to Red Bull next year
Not in mainstream press yet, and conflict with Casio?
http://www.hebdo.ch/hebdo/cadrages/detail/jean-cla...
Not in mainstream press yet, and conflict with Casio?
http://www.hebdo.ch/hebdo/cadrages/detail/jean-cla...
It's unbelievable really. Second from bottom above Marussia (a team that not so many years ago was taking flak for being so slow that they shouldn't be allowed to race, remember) who have 0 points.
You can wheel out all the excuses and reasons you like but the bottom line is that it's completely unacceptable for a team of their standing, paired with a manufacturer with the resources of Honda to be where they are.
If I were a sponsor/board member I would be utterly uninterested in hearing about teething troubles with the power unit or how Honda haven't delivered or how Martin Whitmarsh left a banger in the desk drawer or any of it. The team principal's job is to make it happen. He hasn't. If I was a sponsor, I'd be gone. If I was board, then Ron would be gone (has his stake reduced enough that he could be pushed, incidentally?), along with anyone else I thought hadn't delivered. Honda perhaps
You can wheel out all the excuses and reasons you like but the bottom line is that it's completely unacceptable for a team of their standing, paired with a manufacturer with the resources of Honda to be where they are.
If I were a sponsor/board member I would be utterly uninterested in hearing about teething troubles with the power unit or how Honda haven't delivered or how Martin Whitmarsh left a banger in the desk drawer or any of it. The team principal's job is to make it happen. He hasn't. If I was a sponsor, I'd be gone. If I was board, then Ron would be gone (has his stake reduced enough that he could be pushed, incidentally?), along with anyone else I thought hadn't delivered. Honda perhaps
Disastrous said:
It's unbelievable really. Second from bottom above Marussia (a team that not so many years ago was taking flak for being so slow that they shouldn't be allowed to race, remember) who have 0 points.
You can wheel out all the excuses and reasons you like but the bottom line is that it's completely unacceptable for a team of their standing, paired with a manufacturer with the resources of Honda to be where they are.
If I were a sponsor/board member I would be utterly uninterested in hearing about teething troubles with the power unit or how Honda haven't delivered or how Martin Whitmarsh left a banger in the desk drawer or any of it. The team principal's job is to make it happen. He hasn't. If I was a sponsor, I'd be gone. If I was board, then Ron would be gone (has his stake reduced enough that he could be pushed, incidentally?), along with anyone else I thought hadn't delivered. Honda perhaps
The fact that those things haven't happened shows there is a lot more going on than we are made aware of.You can wheel out all the excuses and reasons you like but the bottom line is that it's completely unacceptable for a team of their standing, paired with a manufacturer with the resources of Honda to be where they are.
If I were a sponsor/board member I would be utterly uninterested in hearing about teething troubles with the power unit or how Honda haven't delivered or how Martin Whitmarsh left a banger in the desk drawer or any of it. The team principal's job is to make it happen. He hasn't. If I was a sponsor, I'd be gone. If I was board, then Ron would be gone (has his stake reduced enough that he could be pushed, incidentally?), along with anyone else I thought hadn't delivered. Honda perhaps
Disastrous said:
It's unbelievable really. Second from bottom above Marussia (a team that not so many years ago was taking flak for being so slow that they shouldn't be allowed to race, remember) who have 0 points.
You can wheel out all the excuses and reasons you like but the bottom line is that it's completely unacceptable for a team of their standing, paired with a manufacturer with the resources of Honda to be where they are.
If I were a sponsor/board member I would be utterly uninterested in hearing about teething troubles with the power unit or how Honda haven't delivered or how Martin Whitmarsh left a banger in the desk drawer or any of it. The team principal's job is to make it happen. He hasn't. If I was a sponsor, I'd be gone. If I was board, then Ron would be gone (has his stake reduced enough that he could be pushed, incidentally?), along with anyone else I thought hadn't delivered. Honda perhaps
Your post shows exactly what is wrong with a lot of people these days. You think because you want something to happen, it will, instantly, and if it doesn't work in your unrealistic timescale, bin the people and the project. Completely clueless as to how hard it is and how much time and money investment it takes to make a state of the art engineering solution work.You can wheel out all the excuses and reasons you like but the bottom line is that it's completely unacceptable for a team of their standing, paired with a manufacturer with the resources of Honda to be where they are.
If I were a sponsor/board member I would be utterly uninterested in hearing about teething troubles with the power unit or how Honda haven't delivered or how Martin Whitmarsh left a banger in the desk drawer or any of it. The team principal's job is to make it happen. He hasn't. If I was a sponsor, I'd be gone. If I was board, then Ron would be gone (has his stake reduced enough that he could be pushed, incidentally?), along with anyone else I thought hadn't delivered. Honda perhaps
jsf said:
Disastrous said:
It's unbelievable really. Second from bottom above Marussia (a team that not so many years ago was taking flak for being so slow that they shouldn't be allowed to race, remember) who have 0 points.
You can wheel out all the excuses and reasons you like but the bottom line is that it's completely unacceptable for a team of their standing, paired with a manufacturer with the resources of Honda to be where they are.
If I were a sponsor/board member I would be utterly uninterested in hearing about teething troubles with the power unit or how Honda haven't delivered or how Martin Whitmarsh left a banger in the desk drawer or any of it. The team principal's job is to make it happen. He hasn't. If I was a sponsor, I'd be gone. If I was board, then Ron would be gone (has his stake reduced enough that he could be pushed, incidentally?), along with anyone else I thought hadn't delivered. Honda perhaps
Your post shows exactly what is wrong with a lot of people these days. You think because you want something to happen, it will, instantly, and if it doesn't work in your unrealistic timescale, bin the people and the project. Completely clueless as to how hard it is and how much time and money investment it takes to make a state of the art engineering solution work.You can wheel out all the excuses and reasons you like but the bottom line is that it's completely unacceptable for a team of their standing, paired with a manufacturer with the resources of Honda to be where they are.
If I were a sponsor/board member I would be utterly uninterested in hearing about teething troubles with the power unit or how Honda haven't delivered or how Martin Whitmarsh left a banger in the desk drawer or any of it. The team principal's job is to make it happen. He hasn't. If I was a sponsor, I'd be gone. If I was board, then Ron would be gone (has his stake reduced enough that he could be pushed, incidentally?), along with anyone else I thought hadn't delivered. Honda perhaps
I wonder if Ron is 'tired' and not got what it takes anymore to see this through. Everybody still quotes the stat that Mclaren have won 1 in 4 of every GP they have ever taken part in.....by now that stat must have expired. They need a major shakeup at the top in my view, if Ron wants to do it then he should and while we don't know the full story or whats going on I think they really need to look at this season and get on with making the partnership work.
jsf said:
Disastrous said:
It's unbelievable really. Second from bottom above Marussia (a team that not so many years ago was taking flak for being so slow that they shouldn't be allowed to race, remember) who have 0 points.
You can wheel out all the excuses and reasons you like but the bottom line is that it's completely unacceptable for a team of their standing, paired with a manufacturer with the resources of Honda to be where they are.
If I were a sponsor/board member I would be utterly uninterested in hearing about teething troubles with the power unit or how Honda haven't delivered or how Martin Whitmarsh left a banger in the desk drawer or any of it. The team principal's job is to make it happen. He hasn't. If I was a sponsor, I'd be gone. If I was board, then Ron would be gone (has his stake reduced enough that he could be pushed, incidentally?), along with anyone else I thought hadn't delivered. Honda perhaps
Your post shows exactly what is wrong with a lot of people these days. You think because you want something to happen, it will, instantly, and if it doesn't work in your unrealistic timescale, bin the people and the project. Completely clueless as to how hard it is and how much time and money investment it takes to make a state of the art engineering solution work.You can wheel out all the excuses and reasons you like but the bottom line is that it's completely unacceptable for a team of their standing, paired with a manufacturer with the resources of Honda to be where they are.
If I were a sponsor/board member I would be utterly uninterested in hearing about teething troubles with the power unit or how Honda haven't delivered or how Martin Whitmarsh left a banger in the desk drawer or any of it. The team principal's job is to make it happen. He hasn't. If I was a sponsor, I'd be gone. If I was board, then Ron would be gone (has his stake reduced enough that he could be pushed, incidentally?), along with anyone else I thought hadn't delivered. Honda perhaps
Gassing Station | Formula 1 | Top of Page | What's New | My Stuff