Will McLaren survive their Honda contract?
Discussion
jsf said:
Your post shows exactly what is wrong with a lot of people these days. You think because you want something to happen, it will, instantly, and if it doesn't work in your unrealistic timescale, bin the people and the project. Completely clueless as to how hard it is and how much time and money investment it takes to make a state of the art engineering solution work.
Exactly.Merc spent over 2 years and some 800 people working on it before 2014 season, the reason their PU is best is.because they spent more time and money up front developing and testing before it has to be homologated.
(This is also the reason they are kissed off with the FIA's crackpot cheap engine bulls
t.)Disastrous said:
jsf said:
Disastrous said:
It's unbelievable really. Second from bottom above Marussia (a team that not so many years ago was taking flak for being so slow that they shouldn't be allowed to race, remember) who have 0 points.
You can wheel out all the excuses and reasons you like but the bottom line is that it's completely unacceptable for a team of their standing, paired with a manufacturer with the resources of Honda to be where they are.
If I were a sponsor/board member I would be utterly uninterested in hearing about teething troubles with the power unit or how Honda haven't delivered or how Martin Whitmarsh left a banger in the desk drawer or any of it. The team principal's job is to make it happen. He hasn't. If I was a sponsor, I'd be gone. If I was board, then Ron would be gone (has his stake reduced enough that he could be pushed, incidentally?), along with anyone else I thought hadn't delivered. Honda perhaps
Your post shows exactly what is wrong with a lot of people these days. You think because you want something to happen, it will, instantly, and if it doesn't work in your unrealistic timescale, bin the people and the project. Completely clueless as to how hard it is and how much time and money investment it takes to make a state of the art engineering solution work.You can wheel out all the excuses and reasons you like but the bottom line is that it's completely unacceptable for a team of their standing, paired with a manufacturer with the resources of Honda to be where they are.
If I were a sponsor/board member I would be utterly uninterested in hearing about teething troubles with the power unit or how Honda haven't delivered or how Martin Whitmarsh left a banger in the desk drawer or any of it. The team principal's job is to make it happen. He hasn't. If I was a sponsor, I'd be gone. If I was board, then Ron would be gone (has his stake reduced enough that he could be pushed, incidentally?), along with anyone else I thought hadn't delivered. Honda perhaps
Scuffers said:
jsf said:
Your post shows exactly what is wrong with a lot of people these days. You think because you want something to happen, it will, instantly, and if it doesn't work in your unrealistic timescale, bin the people and the project. Completely clueless as to how hard it is and how much time and money investment it takes to make a state of the art engineering solution work.
Exactly.Merc spent over 2 years and some 800 people working on it before 2014 season, the reason their PU is best is.because they spent more time and money up front developing and testing before it has to be homologated.
(This is also the reason they are kissed off with the FIA's crackpot cheap engine bulls
t.)t though.I don't think things should happen instantly but I would expect improvement over a season. Has there been any??
Scuffers said:
Exactly.
Merc spent over 2 years and some 800 people working on it before 2014 season, the reason their PU is best is.because they spent more time and money up front developing and testing before it has to be homologated.
(This is also the reason they are kissed off with the FIA's crackpot cheap engine bullst.)
Which then begs the question - if/when the cheap engines arrive, will Mercedes stick around or will it be a good time for them to quit while they are ahead, using the unilateral change in regs as an excuse to avoid paying Bernie's fine for leaving before 2020. It could also explain why Renault haven't finalised buying Lotus yet - perhaps the prospect of a cheap engine is giving them second thoughts about a long-term presence in F1.Merc spent over 2 years and some 800 people working on it before 2014 season, the reason their PU is best is.because they spent more time and money up front developing and testing before it has to be homologated.
(This is also the reason they are kissed off with the FIA's crackpot cheap engine bulls
t.)sirtyro said:
jsf said:
Disastrous said:
It's unbelievable really. Second from bottom above Marussia (a team that not so many years ago was taking flak for being so slow that they shouldn't be allowed to race, remember) who have 0 points.
You can wheel out all the excuses and reasons you like but the bottom line is that it's completely unacceptable for a team of their standing, paired with a manufacturer with the resources of Honda to be where they are.
If I were a sponsor/board member I would be utterly uninterested in hearing about teething troubles with the power unit or how Honda haven't delivered or how Martin Whitmarsh left a banger in the desk drawer or any of it. The team principal's job is to make it happen. He hasn't. If I was a sponsor, I'd be gone. If I was board, then Ron would be gone (has his stake reduced enough that he could be pushed, incidentally?), along with anyone else I thought hadn't delivered. Honda perhaps
Your post shows exactly what is wrong with a lot of people these days. You think because you want something to happen, it will, instantly, and if it doesn't work in your unrealistic timescale, bin the people and the project. Completely clueless as to how hard it is and how much time and money investment it takes to make a state of the art engineering solution work.You can wheel out all the excuses and reasons you like but the bottom line is that it's completely unacceptable for a team of their standing, paired with a manufacturer with the resources of Honda to be where they are.
If I were a sponsor/board member I would be utterly uninterested in hearing about teething troubles with the power unit or how Honda haven't delivered or how Martin Whitmarsh left a banger in the desk drawer or any of it. The team principal's job is to make it happen. He hasn't. If I was a sponsor, I'd be gone. If I was board, then Ron would be gone (has his stake reduced enough that he could be pushed, incidentally?), along with anyone else I thought hadn't delivered. Honda perhaps
I wonder if Ron is 'tired' and not got what it takes anymore to see this through. Everybody still quotes the stat that Mclaren have won 1 in 4 of every GP they have ever taken part in.....by now that stat must have expired. They need a major shakeup at the top in my view, if Ron wants to do it then he should and while we don't know the full story or whats going on I think they really need to look at this season and get on with making the partnership work.
Ron's job is to put in place the right people with the right investment, to judge him on this first year is not sensible. If in 4 years time they are still in this mess then maybe you could have a point, but its far too soon at this stage.
Disastrous said:
Scuffers said:
jsf said:
Your post shows exactly what is wrong with a lot of people these days. You think because you want something to happen, it will, instantly, and if it doesn't work in your unrealistic timescale, bin the people and the project. Completely clueless as to how hard it is and how much time and money investment it takes to make a state of the art engineering solution work.
Exactly.Merc spent over 2 years and some 800 people working on it before 2014 season, the reason their PU is best is.because they spent more time and money up front developing and testing before it has to be homologated.
(This is also the reason they are kissed off with the FIA's crackpot cheap engine bulls
t.)t though.I don't think things should happen instantly but I would expect improvement over a season. Has there been any??
jsf said:
Disastrous said:
Scuffers said:
jsf said:
Your post shows exactly what is wrong with a lot of people these days. You think because you want something to happen, it will, instantly, and if it doesn't work in your unrealistic timescale, bin the people and the project. Completely clueless as to how hard it is and how much time and money investment it takes to make a state of the art engineering solution work.
Exactly.Merc spent over 2 years and some 800 people working on it before 2014 season, the reason their PU is best is.because they spent more time and money up front developing and testing before it has to be homologated.
(This is also the reason they are kissed off with the FIA's crackpot cheap engine bulls
t.)t though.I don't think things should happen instantly but I would expect improvement over a season. Has there been any??
jsf said:
Ferrari were not that far off the pace and had spent years preparing for these new rules. They made the wrong compromises for the overall design so had the opportunity with a fresh design to fix it, and looking at the McLaren/Honda project it appears they also made the wrong compromises in their philosophy, that's all it takes to be off the pace/unreliable in this engineering exercise.
Ron's job is to put in place the right people with the right investment, to judge him on this first year is not sensible. If in 4 years time they are still in this mess then maybe you could have a point, but its far too soon at this stage.
4 years is too long in F1 to judge anything....by then the cars and technology will have changed again and Bernie will probably not be in charge. I think the pace of development is so fast that you have to carry the momentum forward from season to season and for me Mclaren lost that a few years ago and now they are going to have to dig deep to make this happen. I'll give them next season but after that I think if it's still the same then changes will have to be made at the top.Ron's job is to put in place the right people with the right investment, to judge him on this first year is not sensible. If in 4 years time they are still in this mess then maybe you could have a point, but its far too soon at this stage.
Take a look at the history of the sport, 4 years is not unrealistic to rebuild a team, in fact if you look at teams like Ferrari its damn good going to be back to full pace in that period of time. It's not about the current rules alone, it's about building the engineering structure to be capable of winning even with the rule changes.
Ferrari didn't win a constructors championship for 10 years in the 60's-70's, then had another gap of 15 years in the 80's-90's, despite all the funding they had available. They made some utter dogs of cars on occasion.
How long did it take Red Bull, with their funding and the best designer of his generation to become competitive? I'll give you the answer, 6 years. It took Adrian 4 years to design the best car, despite having all the knowledge from his previous teams to pool.
Ferrari didn't win a constructors championship for 10 years in the 60's-70's, then had another gap of 15 years in the 80's-90's, despite all the funding they had available. They made some utter dogs of cars on occasion.
How long did it take Red Bull, with their funding and the best designer of his generation to become competitive? I'll give you the answer, 6 years. It took Adrian 4 years to design the best car, despite having all the knowledge from his previous teams to pool.
In my opinion, the problems facing McLaren are threefold.
1. The standard of competition is really high, higher than it's ever been in the history of F1. Mercedes in particular are an extremely professional, well funded team, with the advantage of in-house engine supply. Ferrari aren't far behind, neither are Red Bull.
2. The key determinant of performance in modern F1 is the 'power unit', and that's not within the control of McLaren. Unless Honda come up with a competitive engine McLaren are never going to compete with the Mercedes engined teams, Red Bull have the same problem. Whatever McLaren do with chassis and aero development will count for nothing without an engine that's at least close to being on a par with the Mercedes and Ferrari units.
3. Development costs money and McLaren aren't doing well enough to be getting much in from sponsors or CVC, coming 9th this season won't help. Whereas teams such as Mercedes, Ferrari and Red Bull look at F1 as a marketing expense, funded by the sales of other products, McLaren are largely a traditional racing team so have to pay their way. I can't see theit road car division being able to support the F1 team.
1. The standard of competition is really high, higher than it's ever been in the history of F1. Mercedes in particular are an extremely professional, well funded team, with the advantage of in-house engine supply. Ferrari aren't far behind, neither are Red Bull.
2. The key determinant of performance in modern F1 is the 'power unit', and that's not within the control of McLaren. Unless Honda come up with a competitive engine McLaren are never going to compete with the Mercedes engined teams, Red Bull have the same problem. Whatever McLaren do with chassis and aero development will count for nothing without an engine that's at least close to being on a par with the Mercedes and Ferrari units.
3. Development costs money and McLaren aren't doing well enough to be getting much in from sponsors or CVC, coming 9th this season won't help. Whereas teams such as Mercedes, Ferrari and Red Bull look at F1 as a marketing expense, funded by the sales of other products, McLaren are largely a traditional racing team so have to pay their way. I can't see theit road car division being able to support the F1 team.
jsf said:
Take a look at the history of the sport, 4 years is not unrealistic to rebuild a team, in fact if you look at teams like Ferrari its damn good going to be back to full pace in that period of time. It's not about the current rules alone, it's about building the engineering structure to be capable of winning even with the rule changes.
Ferrari didn't win a constructors championship for 10 years in the 60's-70's, then had another gap of 15 years in the 80's-90's, despite all the funding they had available. They made some utter dogs of cars on occasion.
How long did it take Red Bull, with their funding and the best designer of his generation to become competitive? I'll give you the answer, 6 years. It took Adrian 4 years to design the best car, despite having all the knowledge from his previous teams to pool.
I don't think there's much to learn from F1 in the 60's and 70's. Processes and Business Management has come on so far since then that I would not consider the sort of timescales that were acceptable in those days acceptable now. F1 is life on fast forward. Teams must be agile, fast and lean. Of course you can have a duff season and of course it can take years to get back on top. But they are almost dead last. And showing ZERO sign of improvement. This is McLaren, not Caterham or similar!Ferrari didn't win a constructors championship for 10 years in the 60's-70's, then had another gap of 15 years in the 80's-90's, despite all the funding they had available. They made some utter dogs of cars on occasion.
How long did it take Red Bull, with their funding and the best designer of his generation to become competitive? I'll give you the answer, 6 years. It took Adrian 4 years to design the best car, despite having all the knowledge from his previous teams to pool.
You mention Ferrari - look at their turnaround. Dreadful season followed by a sweeping out of ineffective management and a marked increase in form within a season.
No excuses for Mclaren.
I understand the engine issue is Honda's problem but no excuses for them either.
London424 said:
jammy_basturd said:
I'd like to highlight that Ferrari have had several not so great seasons, each with personnel changes until they've found a team that works.
Yeah, but their not so great season still sees them finish in the top 4 in the constructors (in the last 10 years anyway). 2006 - 11 points. 8th
2011 - 5 points. 9th
2013 - 5 points. 9th
Eric Boullier - why is he escaping the flak? I could never quite understand why McLaren appointed him in the first place, and he's certainly done nothing noticeable for the team in the meantime in terms of managing the PR/expectations. Given the grief Martin Whitmarsh was given during his stewardship, why isn't EB experiencing the same or worse?
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