Will McLaren survive their Honda contract?
Discussion
The original turbo engines ran on synthetic and rather toxic fuels, you wont see anything like the same power using currently available fuels. If Geof had access to these nasty compounds, apart from being dead by now, he would be producing a lot more power.
Engine management and turbo design has come a long way since the 80's F1 era, but you would still need the highly toxic fuel compounds used back then to generate the BHP/Litre of that period. Drivability is another matter, they will be pussy cats now compared to the power curves of the era.
Engine management and turbo design has come a long way since the 80's F1 era, but you would still need the highly toxic fuel compounds used back then to generate the BHP/Litre of that period. Drivability is another matter, they will be pussy cats now compared to the power curves of the era.
The barriers to McLaren creating their own engine are enormous (Red Bull would surely have gone down that route, were it viable). First, you need enormous R&D resources to pull together all the elements (the ICE is merely one component), then you need to pay for it. Then you have to avoid abusing any protected IP from your previous engine supplier(s).
Assuming all of that, you have to be confident of matching or outperforming some of the largest corporations on the planet. If Honda, Renault and Ferrari have struggled to get on terms with Mercedes, what will you have, with far more limited resources, that the others won't?
Assuming all of that, you have to be confident of matching or outperforming some of the largest corporations on the planet. If Honda, Renault and Ferrari have struggled to get on terms with Mercedes, what will you have, with far more limited resources, that the others won't?
Audidodat said:
The barriers to McLaren creating their own engine are enormous (Red Bull would surely have gone down that route, were it viable). First, you need enormous R&D resources to pull together all the elements (the ICE is merely one component), then you need to pay for it. Then you have to avoid abusing any protected IP from your previous engine supplier(s).
Assuming all of that, you have to be confident of matching or outperforming some of the largest corporations on the planet. If Honda, Renault and Ferrari have struggled to get on terms with Mercedes, what will you have, with far more limited resources, that the others won't?
That goes two ways... one could say that the honda, renault and fez engine programs show it's not simply who's chucking the vastest resources at the problem... ...although I wouldn't care much for the chances of anyone on shoesting. Assuming all of that, you have to be confident of matching or outperforming some of the largest corporations on the planet. If Honda, Renault and Ferrari have struggled to get on terms with Mercedes, what will you have, with far more limited resources, that the others won't?
Mclarens home grown engine could work in theory if they had a couple of customers and costed it over x many years - mercedes had a very sensible looking engine program in this regard, but with the uncertainty of so much ongoing background twaddle regarding engine regs they'd be quite insane to try this - it could ruin them. Much better to let a big car co front the $ and take the risk.
Audidodat said:
The barriers to McLaren creating their own engine are enormous (Red Bull would surely have gone down that route, were it viable). First, you need enormous R&D resources to pull together all the elements (the ICE is merely one component), then you need to pay for it. Then you have to avoid abusing any protected IP from your previous engine supplier(s).
Assuming all of that, you have to be confident of matching or outperforming some of the largest corporations on the planet. If Honda, Renault and Ferrari have struggled to get on terms with Mercedes, what will you have, with far more limited resources, that the others won't?
Ricardo have all the resources. All someone needs to do is to write the £150 million cheque. Which in the overall scheme of things isn't a lot of money.Assuming all of that, you have to be confident of matching or outperforming some of the largest corporations on the planet. If Honda, Renault and Ferrari have struggled to get on terms with Mercedes, what will you have, with far more limited resources, that the others won't?
Adam Ansel said:
Audidodat said:
The barriers to McLaren creating their own engine are enormous (Red Bull would surely have gone down that route, were it viable). First, you need enormous R&D resources to pull together all the elements (the ICE is merely one component), then you need to pay for it. Then you have to avoid abusing any protected IP from your previous engine supplier(s).
Assuming all of that, you have to be confident of matching or outperforming some of the largest corporations on the planet. If Honda, Renault and Ferrari have struggled to get on terms with Mercedes, what will you have, with far more limited resources, that the others won't?
Ricardo have all the resources. All someone needs to do is to write the £150 million cheque. Which in the overall scheme of things isn't a lot of money.Assuming all of that, you have to be confident of matching or outperforming some of the largest corporations on the planet. If Honda, Renault and Ferrari have struggled to get on terms with Mercedes, what will you have, with far more limited resources, that the others won't?
Adam Ansel said:
Ricardo have all the resources. All someone needs to do is to write the £150 million cheque. Which in the overall scheme of things isn't a lot of money.
Is that what they estimate to be the cost of developing a competitive power unit? Seems cheap to me given the 8 figures it is rumoured Mercedes have spent. I'd like to know what Cosworth would estimate their spend. After all, they have history on developing these things from scratch.Flooble said:
RYH64E said:
Unfortunately it's every bit as daft as it sounds, how much do you think it would cost to develop a competitive F1 engine with today's regulations?
About £150 million, give or takehttp://www.pitpass.com/52739/Mercedes-spending-acc...
Adam Ansel said:
Audidodat said:
The barriers to McLaren creating their own engine are enormous (Red Bull would surely have gone down that route, were it viable). First, you need enormous R&D resources to pull together all the elements (the ICE is merely one component), then you need to pay for it. Then you have to avoid abusing any protected IP from your previous engine supplier(s).
Assuming all of that, you have to be confident of matching or outperforming some of the largest corporations on the planet. If Honda, Renault and Ferrari have struggled to get on terms with Mercedes, what will you have, with far more limited resources, that the others won't?
Ricardo have all the resources. All someone needs to do is to write the £150 million cheque. Which in the overall scheme of things isn't a lot of money.Assuming all of that, you have to be confident of matching or outperforming some of the largest corporations on the planet. If Honda, Renault and Ferrari have struggled to get on terms with Mercedes, what will you have, with far more limited resources, that the others won't?
In addition to this, £150m is about a third of the money you'd need to get to a competitive organisation that could produce a leading engine, plus several (5+) years to build everything (mostly the people), by which time the goalposts will have moved (possibly twice) and you'll need new specialists in lots of areas again. It's a constant investment in people, technology which will never work or see the light of day, basic pure research, facilities, tooling, simulation, analysis and so on.
Even established F1 engineering divisions (eg. Ferrari) struggle with the PUs.
With a new organisation, you're going to have to have very deep pockets and a very long term view. It's really a manufacturer-only arena unless someone with billions to spend gets involved.
I have the utmost respect for how Ricardo do things, but this would be like eating a melon whole for them. They aren't a vending machine for leading engines in F1 - that simply doesn't exist.
Sniff has his say on the matter:
http://sniffpetrol.com/2016/03/29/mclaren-comes-up...
Probably more accurate than the drivel from the guy quoted above!
NB the link is NSFW due to sweary words.
http://sniffpetrol.com/2016/03/29/mclaren-comes-up...
Probably more accurate than the drivel from the guy quoted above!
NB the link is NSFW due to sweary words.
EnglishTony said:
Brawn used Mercedes engines.
Who bought them from, er Ilmor ? After originally developing IndyCar engines, the company built a partnership with Mercedes-Benz to power F1 cars for both the Sauber and McLaren teams. After the death of Paul Morgan in a vintage aeroplane crash in 2001, Mercedes increased its stake until it owned the entire company, and renamed it Mercedes-Benz High Performance Engines Ltd. Ilmor, founded by Mario Illien and Paul Morgan were ex Cosworth. Incestious industry, isn't it?The new Ilmor Engineering Ltd. In 2015, it was announced Ilmor would be returning to Formula One to build Red Bull's 2016 engine. Although Renault are still Red Bull's engine suppliers, they will only be providing the base engine; the name of the engine will be Tag Heuer and it will be built by Ilmor. This will be Ilmor's first involvement in Formula One since the 2005 Formula One season.
Edited by robinessex on Wednesday 30th March 07:37
rubystone said:
EnglishTony said:
Brawn used Mercedes engines.
If you're referring to the Sniff article, I think that with respect, you're missing the point However Brawn is a chassis guru and not an engine man. McLaren don't need a chassis (allegedly) they need an engine.
And no, I don't need a potted history of Illmor.
EnglishTony said:
I like Sniff. He has even used a couple of my ideas in the distant past.
However Brawn is a chassis guru and not an engine man. McLaren don't need a chassis (allegedly) they need an engine.
And no, I don't need a potted history of Illmor.
As I said, you're missing the point of Sniffpetrol.... However Brawn is a chassis guru and not an engine man. McLaren don't need a chassis (allegedly) they need an engine.
And no, I don't need a potted history of Illmor.
So anyway...'ilmor' in the guise of Mario Illien, has nothing to do with Brixworth, just for everyone's clarification. but I was interested to read in Robin's post that Ilmor would be building the Red Bull engine based on the Renault unit. Which suggests they have scaled up. Does anyone know where the manufacturing base for Ilien's outfit is?
I noticed that Rob White appears to be minister without portfolio right now. If Red Bull are serious about that engine, do we think he may be headed their way?
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