Will McLaren survive their Honda contract?

[Dr Z]

Adam Ansel said:

One swallow doesn't make a summer. Pretty impressive though.

Nice, but I expect qualifying pace to dip well in to the 1:29s and it will be only satisfactory if McLaren can stay ahead of the Torro Rossos tomorrow. I will take notice if they can beat the TRs in race though. I also fully expect both Ferraris to qualify ahead of Button.

[EnglishTony]

REALIST123 said:

Er, yes?

Did you lose your sense of humour or have you never had one?

Since when did Ross Brawn design engines?

[anonymous-user]

Cheer up Tony, the Sniff article is just a piss take and isn't meant to be literally correct.

[ajprice]

EnglishTony said:

REALIST123 said:

Er, yes?

Did you lose your sense of humour or have you never had one?

Since when did Ross Brawn design engines?

2008 Honda wasn't good, Ross Brawn got Mercedes in, 2009 Brawn was a little bit better

So McLaren get Brawn, tell Honda to fk off, and good things happen, because it worked in 2009. Job done.

It's a joke, don't think too hard.

[rubystone]

ajprice said:

2008 Honda wasn't good, Ross Brawn got Mercedes in, 2009 Brawn was a little bit better

So McLaren get Brawn, tell Honda to fk off, and good things happen, because it worked in 2009. Job done.

It's a joke, don't think too hard.

We re all banging our heads against s brick wall with this one, chaps

[Dr Z]

Just had a chance to have a look at the race stint data. Vandoorne matched the pace of Button while the latter was in the race, so using Vandoorne as our yardstick, it seems McLaren were very close to Red Bull and Torro Rosso in the first stint.

Vandoorne also matched Ricciardo's pace in the second stint, however it appears the car gets worser as fuel levels go down, while Torro Rosso and Red Bull get faster and show superior pace than McLaren in the 3rd/4th stints. Actually, Vandoorne matched Ricciardo's pace on the 1st lap of the 3rd stint, but the McLaren showed worser degradation than the Red Bull/Torro Rosso in the final two stints.

Given their worser performance in S2 in qualifying compared to Red Bull/Torro Rosso and this degradation, I'd guess that they are still running a compromised downforce/aero setup to compensate for some power deficit in the qualifying/race. I think, I can see the light at the end of the tunnel. Or is that a train?

[Rach296]

Dr Z said:

Just had a chance to have a look at the race stint data. Vandoorne matched the pace of Button while the latter was in the race, so using Vandoorne as our yardstick, it seems McLaren were very close to Red Bull and Torro Rosso in the first stint.

Vandoorne also matched Ricciardo's pace in the second stint, however it appears the car gets worser as fuel levels go down, while Torro Rosso and Red Bull get faster and show superior pace than McLaren in the 3rd/4th stints. Actually, Vandoorne matched Ricciardo's pace on the 1st lap of the 3rd stint, but the McLaren showed worser degradation than the Red Bull/Torro Rosso in the final two stints.

Given their worser performance in S2 in qualifying compared to Red Bull/Torro Rosso and this degradation, I'd guess that they are still running a compromised downforce/aero setup to compensate for some power deficit in the qualifying/race. I think, I can see the light at the end of the tunnel. Or is that a train?

Just depends if the drivers are prepared to wait for the car to improve.. after Sundays race with both not in the race till the end. Could be highly unlikely they'll stay!

[London424]

Rach296 said:

Dr Z said:

Just had a chance to have a look at the race stint data. Vandoorne matched the pace of Button while the latter was in the race, so using Vandoorne as our yardstick, it seems McLaren were very close to Red Bull and Torro Rosso in the first stint.

Vandoorne also matched Ricciardo's pace in the second stint, however it appears the car gets worser as fuel levels go down, while Torro Rosso and Red Bull get faster and show superior pace than McLaren in the 3rd/4th stints. Actually, Vandoorne matched Ricciardo's pace on the 1st lap of the 3rd stint, but the McLaren showed worser degradation than the Red Bull/Torro Rosso in the final two stints.

Given their worser performance in S2 in qualifying compared to Red Bull/Torro Rosso and this degradation, I'd guess that they are still running a compromised downforce/aero setup to compensate for some power deficit in the qualifying/race. I think, I can see the light at the end of the tunnel. Or is that a train?

Just depends if the drivers are prepared to wait for the car to improve.. after Sundays race with both not in the race till the end. Could be highly unlikely they'll stay!

If you were McL and you had your prized young asset put in a performance like that I would think that Button will be the most likely to be done at the end of the season. Alonso still has another year on his contract.

Why pay mega money when you can get similar results for much less.

[jammy_basturd]

Because SV isn't as marketable as either Button or Alonso and at the moment that matters almost as much as getting points on the board.

[DKL]

London424 said:

If you were McL and you had your prized young asset put in a performance like that I would think that Button will be the most likely to be done at the end of the season. Alonso still has another year on his contract.

Why pay mega money when you can get similar results for much less.

My thoughts were the same.
SV out qualified his teammate and both were in reasonable positions. JB was ahead, so started better, when he retired and assuming that was nothing to do with the driver, I'd say there was very little in it. SV drove well and finished in the points. I'd imagine either JB or FO would have been ok with 12th in qualifying and a 10 place finish.
The only difference is their salary!
I can't see both the McL drivers being there next year, maybe neither.

[jammy_basturd]

Could it be said that the McL isn't yet quick enough for the extra talent/experience of the world champion drivers to stand out over SV?

[ajprice]

DKL said:

London424 said:

If you were McL and you had your prized young asset put in a performance like that I would think that Button will be the most likely to be done at the end of the season. Alonso still has another year on his contract.

Why pay mega money when you can get similar results for much less.

My thoughts were the same.
SV out qualified his teammate and both were in reasonable positions. JB was ahead, so started better, when he retired and assuming that was nothing to do with the driver, I'd say there was very little in it. SV drove well and finished in the points. I'd imagine either JB or FO would have been ok with 12th in qualifying and a 10 place finish.
The only difference is their salary!
I can't see both the McL drivers being there next year, maybe neither.

Apart from the marketing, it depends on whether McLaren would want Vandoorne driving one car with Jenson/Fernando
as the old head to give a bit of guidance, or do what Toro Rosso are doing with Max and Sainz Jr. Who have McLaren got as a '4th driver' after Vandoorne?

[kambites]

I'd imagine what's important to Mclaren is how good their drivers are at helping them to develop the car. There's a big difference between being able to drive a car as fast as it's capable of going and being able to tell an engineer where and why the car is slow; I'd imagine that having a lot of experience of different cars will be a significant benefit with the latter.

Or maybe modern telemetry is so good that that sort of input simply isn't necessary from the drivers any more?

[telecat]

Wasn't impressed with VD(!). JB jumped him at the start and was running well ahead when the ERS expired. Given the race I would have expected more from the "next big thing". Still he does not throw his teddy away like Verstappen.

[London424]

kambites said:

I'd imagine what's important to Mclaren is how good their drivers are at helping them to develop the car. There's a big difference between being able to drive a car as fast as it's capable of going and being able to tell an engineer where and why the car is slow; I'd imagine that having a lot of experience of different cars will be a significant benefit with the latter.

Or maybe modern telemetry is so good that that sort of input simply isn't necessary from the drivers any more?

I think I've asked this before but I'm just not sure what a driver does nowadays in F1 to set up the car. Sure they can give feedback on understeer/oversteer, they can play around with the settings etc, but with all the information available to the engineers I just don't think a driver does anywhere near as much as they used to. And they are going to have zero input into the tiny little aero winglet that the R&D guys have developed for a piece of the car!

[rdjohn]

London424 said:

I think I've asked this before but I'm just not sure what a driver does nowadays in F1 to set up the car. Sure they can give feedback on understeer/oversteer, they can play around with the settings etc, but with all the information available to the engineers I just don't think a driver does anywhere near as much as they used to. And they are going to have zero input into the tiny little aero winglet that the R&D guys have developed for a piece of the car!

Sadly, I think you are right.

The very sad fact is that the cars and teams are driven by data. The guy in the seat can sometimes make a small difference, but it may well be as small 95/5%.

Haryanto in a Merc would probably beat Lewis in a Manor. It is one of the fundamental wrongs of the sporting aspect of F1, but totally in keeping with big-business rules OK, so why change anything?

[Rach296]

London424 said:

If you were McL and you had your prized young asset put in a performance like that I would think that Button will be the most likely to be done at the end of the season. Alonso still has another year on his contract.

Why pay mega money when you can get similar results for much less.

Yeah exactly! You can see just from the after race interviews that Button has had enough of this now I mean how long has it been since he's been on the podium now?!

I heard a while ago they might give the drivers a year off and have someone else drive the cars whilst they're improving, then they would come back once the car is more competitive. Might be a good idea, unlikely it will happen though.

I feel that Alonso is going to try just about anything to get out of his contract.

[anonymous-user]

rdjohn said:

Sadly, I think you are right.

The very sad fact is that the cars and teams are driven by data. The guy in the seat can sometimes make a small difference, but it may well be as small 95/5%.

Haryanto in a Merc would probably beat Lewis in a Manor. It is one of the fundamental wrongs of the sporting aspect of F1, but totally in keeping with big-business rules OK, so why change anything?

F1 has always been like that. It's only in exceptional circumstances (think a torrential Monaco with Senna in the Tolemen) that a driver can make up enough of a difference to compensate for a slower car.

[kambites]

jsf said:

F1 has always been like that. It's only in exceptional circumstances (think a torrential Monaco with Senna in the Tolemen) that a driver can make up enough of a difference to compensate for a slower car.

The question in this case isn't really whether the driver can compensate for a slow car, but rather whether they are a significant component in producing a fast car. The contribution of the driver to both setup and actual car development used to be significant but in these days where they're throwing enormous amounts of computing power at simulation, I'm not sure how much of that remains.

[Audidodat]

I would have thought if you were an engineer you'd want the driver to be as consistent a control as possible. The better the driver is at being able to consistently drive to set limits and articulate what they feel is happening, the better. Those drivers who can blast off 10 laps in a row within a 10th or so.

The last thing I'd expect of a driver would be to try and teach the engineers about how to design a car.