Will McLaren survive their Honda contract?
Discussion
I think a lot of McLaren's problems can be traced back to the disastrous pre-season testing. The basic chassis & aero are very different from last year's, but they didn't get a chance to carry out enough testing to determine base setups for the car as the engine couldn't manage two laps in a row.
So at pretty much every race meeting, they've spend fridays trying (between engine failures) to get a good initial setup and haven't had much time to to see if any of the aero/chassis changes they've been working on actually make a difference or not.
So at pretty much every race meeting, they've spend fridays trying (between engine failures) to get a good initial setup and haven't had much time to to see if any of the aero/chassis changes they've been working on actually make a difference or not.
Gaz. said:
Though Spa is an engine circuit, if you're chassis is a mess then you're in trouble. If you look at the on board shots from cars following the Mclaren you'll see that they are all over the show while the camera car is rock solid and much, much faster. Both drivers had to lift through Eau Rouge even on empty tanks and they were 20kmh down on the way in too. On the run from Paul Friere to the Bus Stop the Macs did not look planted and stable, you can see this from Verstappen's car on the opening laps (because no one was behind them later on).
Lack of power forcing them to try reducing drag by running low downforce to compensate perhaps ?rscott said:
I think a lot of McLaren's problems can be traced back to the disastrous pre-season testing. The basic chassis & aero are very different from last year's, but they didn't get a chance to carry out enough testing to determine base setups for the car as the engine couldn't manage two laps in a row.
So at pretty much every race meeting, they've spend fridays trying (between engine failures) to get a good initial setup and haven't had much time to to see if any of the aero/chassis changes they've been working on actually make a difference or not.
I believe Redbull had less testing than McL in their first year. Came second in the Constructors. So at pretty much every race meeting, they've spend fridays trying (between engine failures) to get a good initial setup and haven't had much time to to see if any of the aero/chassis changes they've been working on actually make a difference or not.
Gaz. said:
That isn't a like for like situation. McHonda are a solitary team that largely play by the rules and even honour gentleman's agreements.
Remind me, how many engines did McHonda change at Spa?http://planetf1.com/driver/3213/74637/Honda-went-a...
FeelingLucky said:
The problem is, Ron has, on occasion (knowingly or not) spoken some absolute untruths. Before Christmas he gave an interview where he said the Honda package was already competitive with current power/consumption levels, with "much" more to come over the winter. He said it was "Unbelievably Good"
Now (clearly) we know that to be ABSOLUTELY not the case, in the clip above he states categorically that they will be much more competitive over the next few races, again totally untrue.
I don't know if he's misinformed (hard to imagine for such a well known control freak) or he's simply lying, either way it's badly harming both his and McLaren's image.
I think he described it as a 'gem' of an engine. Its sad, there is a lot of love out there for Ron, but these statements now just making him look a like a clown(which he is clearly not, but people will be thinking it). Whitmarsh looks better by the day.Now (clearly) we know that to be ABSOLUTELY not the case, in the clip above he states categorically that they will be much more competitive over the next few races, again totally untrue.
I don't know if he's misinformed (hard to imagine for such a well known control freak) or he's simply lying, either way it's badly harming both his and McLaren's image.
tbh Whitmarsh was rightly critcized but perhaps excessively so. A lot of people thought the return of Ron was a good thing but I'm not so sure..... he seems to rub people up the wrong way.... I can't imagine his relationship with Fernando is anything other than barely civil and it is no secret some of his former drivers are not exactly his biggest fan.
I wonder if the problem is Mclaren has become saturated with 'ron speak' and totally corporate.... basically without a heart and soul. Do the people working back at the factory love the team or are they just clocking in for a pay check? When you look at what has made Redbull and Mercedes successful it is not simply technical excellence it is the whole ethos of those teams.
I wonder if the problem is Mclaren has become saturated with 'ron speak' and totally corporate.... basically without a heart and soul. Do the people working back at the factory love the team or are they just clocking in for a pay check? When you look at what has made Redbull and Mercedes successful it is not simply technical excellence it is the whole ethos of those teams.
VolvoT5 said:
tbh Whitmarsh was rightly critcized but perhaps excessively so. A lot of people thought the return of Ron was a good thing but I'm not so sure..... he seems to rub people up the wrong way.... I can't imagine his relationship with Fernando is anything other than barely civil and it is no secret some of his former drivers are not exactly his biggest fan.
I wonder if the problem is Mclaren has become saturated with 'ron speak' and totally corporate.... basically without a heart and soul. Do the people working back at the factory love the team or are they just clocking in for a pay check? When you look at what has made Redbull and Mercedes successful it is not simply technical excellence it is the whole ethos of those teams.
Maybe some truth in that, what is worth noting is that Whitmarsh got his way Mclaren would have had a much bigger budget then they have now. Yes he doesn't design the car and a big budget wouldn't have stopped Honda producing a dog of an engine, but the reality is their budget for next year will be much much smaller than in previous years and money in F1 talks. The chassis clearly isn't as good as they like to make out, and you need £££ to sort that out long run. I think they are in a hole, have been for a while and it will take some digging to get out of it.I wonder if the problem is Mclaren has become saturated with 'ron speak' and totally corporate.... basically without a heart and soul. Do the people working back at the factory love the team or are they just clocking in for a pay check? When you look at what has made Redbull and Mercedes successful it is not simply technical excellence it is the whole ethos of those teams.
andy-xr said:
I read an article last night where Honda said they were a bit up on Renault, somewhere near Ferrari and massively off Mercedes. In Honda's mind, they should go to Monza and be ahead of Red Bull. Then this morning, any thought of doing anything at Monza for McLaren is a no-no as it's not a track that their car suits.
I think it's going to get to a point where either McLaren or Honda handle press briefing, but neither on their own as they cant get a straight story together. Everyone's looking at Honda as the bad guys, and a more powerful engine will be the saviour of everything including the Euro crisis, world peace and abolishment of child hunger. It seems more likely that McLaren havent got a decent enough car underneath them to make the best of whatever engine is dropped into it
Maybe they are just being economical with the truth. I think it's going to get to a point where either McLaren or Honda handle press briefing, but neither on their own as they cant get a straight story together. Everyone's looking at Honda as the bad guys, and a more powerful engine will be the saviour of everything including the Euro crisis, world peace and abolishment of child hunger. It seems more likely that McLaren havent got a decent enough car underneath them to make the best of whatever engine is dropped into it
Perhaps the ICE does have the stated power and it is just the recovery bits and integration that are rubbish. The recent tokens were only spent on the combustion chambers and we know that KERS was not being fully utilised until very recently.
rdjohn said:
Maybe they are just being economical with the truth.
Perhaps the ICE does have the stated power and it is just the recovery bits and integration that are rubbish. The recent tokens were only spent on the combustion chambers and we know that KERS was not being fully utilised until very recently.
Some stuff from Spa was that the ICE is now pretty good, and the rest is just pants. Problem is they don't have the tokens to burn to change that side of things or its not worth it. It will have to be sorted out in the winter Perhaps the ICE does have the stated power and it is just the recovery bits and integration that are rubbish. The recent tokens were only spent on the combustion chambers and we know that KERS was not being fully utilised until very recently.
revrange said:
Remind me which team got fined $100m dollars for using others designs?
Although in the wrong Ferrari/Renault (can't remember which) were also found in possession of illegal information and didn't even recieve a slap ok the wrist. The fine was largely Max Moseley shoeing Ron how much of a prick he thinks he is...The rumour that I've heard and read a few times is that Honda are bankrolling this season, lately there are fresh rumours of a title sponsor on the cards too.
Also as previously stated, there's not enough tokens to left to fix their ERS deployment issues for 2015, so they're already focused on next season and will continued to develop the package for 2016.
I think you have to read between the lines on some of the statements that come out from Arai, Honda ICE is powerful, the chassis is good, car is well balanced according to drivers, it's the ERS system that's lacking and therefore cannot be used fully to boost the ICE and improve on the lap times.
Singapore will definitely see a difference, not so high speed and plenty of braking areas for energy recovery. this means that deployment will be less of an issue.
Don't forget that all the teams are continually trying to improve so if McHonda were flailing about and not improving they'd be behind the Marussia's too, not forgetting that Marussia supposedly have a Ferrari PU in their car too.
Mercedes have just used the last of their tokens for Monza, they're clear of the field by some margin. Honda doesn't want to just catch Mercedes, they've taken a radical step to surpass them.
Also as previously stated, there's not enough tokens to left to fix their ERS deployment issues for 2015, so they're already focused on next season and will continued to develop the package for 2016.
I think you have to read between the lines on some of the statements that come out from Arai, Honda ICE is powerful, the chassis is good, car is well balanced according to drivers, it's the ERS system that's lacking and therefore cannot be used fully to boost the ICE and improve on the lap times.
Singapore will definitely see a difference, not so high speed and plenty of braking areas for energy recovery. this means that deployment will be less of an issue.
Don't forget that all the teams are continually trying to improve so if McHonda were flailing about and not improving they'd be behind the Marussia's too, not forgetting that Marussia supposedly have a Ferrari PU in their car too.
Mercedes have just used the last of their tokens for Monza, they're clear of the field by some margin. Honda doesn't want to just catch Mercedes, they've taken a radical step to surpass them.
Gaz. said:
They got a $100m fine for possession, and as Mosley said it was $1m for the documents and $99m for being Ron Dennis. Meanwhile Renault who also had a copy and were told not to do it again, but Toyota actually built an entire car off the back of the Ferrari stuff and raced it without raising an eybrow from the FIA. Mclaren had to have their 2008 car scrutinized by the FIA specifically for Ferrari 2007 data and the FIA found nothing.
Hmmm not quiet right. McLaren were found to have Ferrari influences in there designs & organisation. They had to undertake not to develop certain aspects of car. They admitted it themselves in a press release -http://web.archive.org/web/20071214072736/http://w...
Yes Mosley was settling a score with Ron, but you should also remember what pissed them off was early in 2007 when first blew up Mclaren said we can't find any evidence nothing to see, when clearly there was.
The Toyota thing, went criminal law, people did time for it if i recall. With Renault yes, Renault should have been done but it was a fairly standard engineer leaves team a with knowledge and joins team B. That would have meant half the grid needing big fines, hence no action taken and slapped rist for Renault.
London424 said:
That isn't good whatever way you look at it.Gaz. said:
revrange said:
Remind me which team got fined $100m dollars for using others designs?
They got a $100m fine for possession, and as Mosley said it was $1m for the documents and $99m for being Ron Dennis. Meanwhile Renault who also had a copy and were told not to do it again, but Toyota actually built an entire car off the back of the Ferrari stuff and raced it without raising an eybrow from the FIA. Mclaren had to have their 2008 car scrutinized by the FIA specifically for Ferrari 2007 data and the FIA found nothing. 
Gaz. said:
Toyota got a suspended sentence, no $100m fine or exclusion from the championship etc, and did it twice in four years. Honda were approached with the same material who told Stepney to go away.
Sorry so whats the point with honda? They were approached and said bugger off? How could they be fined for that!Gaz. said:
revrange said:
Hmmm not quiet right. McLaren were found to have Ferrari influences in there designs & organisation. They had to undertake not to develop certain aspects of car. They admitted it themselves in a press release -
http://web.archive.org/web/20071214072736/http://w...
Yes Mosley was settling a score with Ron, but you should also remember what pissed them off was early in 2007 when first blew up Mclaren said we can't find any evidence nothing to see, when clearly there was.
The Toyota thing, went criminal law, people did time for it if i recall. With Renault yes, Renault should have been done but it was a fairly standard engineer leaves team a with knowledge and joins team B. That would have meant half the grid needing big fines, hence no action taken and slapped rist for Renault.
Toyota got a suspended sentence, no $100m fine or exclusion from the championship etc, and did it twice in four years. Honda were approached with the same material who told Stepney to go away.http://web.archive.org/web/20071214072736/http://w...
Yes Mosley was settling a score with Ron, but you should also remember what pissed them off was early in 2007 when first blew up Mclaren said we can't find any evidence nothing to see, when clearly there was.
The Toyota thing, went criminal law, people did time for it if i recall. With Renault yes, Renault should have been done but it was a fairly standard engineer leaves team a with knowledge and joins team B. That would have meant half the grid needing big fines, hence no action taken and slapped rist for Renault.
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