Does Pirelli think we are all stupid?

Does Pirelli think we are all stupid?

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entropy

5,403 posts

202 months

Wednesday 26th August 2015
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BlimeyCharlie said:
entropy said:
Scuffers said:
Oh do get a grip!

F1 is not the hardest category on their tyres, they are not the fastest, heaviest, highest downforce etc etc. Yet none of the others have tyres disintegrate on them, do they?

This is 2015, not the 1950s
It doesnt help if teams are pushing the limits - in which they are entitled to out of choice - such as too low pressures, aggressive camber (latter now mandated), tyre swapping when advised not to which exacerbated the problem with st tyres.

Another example is that V8 Supercars recently had a problem with teams setting tyre pressures too low.
With all due respect, I have no idea about this, I'm just sticking with F1.

It would appear that we (the armchair fans) generally lack the ability to question what goes on before us. Pirelli say all ok with their tyre and we take it as gospel.
I'm not anti Pirelli at all, but feel my intellect has been insulted by being led to accept that Rosberg and Vettel's tyres exploded to being worn out or punctured.

If I were to sit on the fence in an armchair, I'd like to see the evidence that Pirelli have* that Rosberg and Vettel's failures were down to their driving.

  • As in they can demonstrate they have evidence, as oppose to claim they have evidence.
The former I was referring to the mass tyre failures at Silverstone 2013, for the latter: http://www.v8supercars.com.au/news/championship/mi...


ukaskew

10,642 posts

220 months

Wednesday 26th August 2015
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You have to wonder for what possible reason Pirelli bother with the sport any more. They are made to produce tyres with limited life, so exactly the opposite of anything that would be useful in terms of road tyre research, their name is pretty much only ever mentioned in a negative light on race day.

I'm assuming it's costing them a hell of a lot of money to be in F1, but I'm not seeing the benefits. Sure they have significant brand awareness, but that's not a great deal of use if it's largely negative.

mollytherocker

14,365 posts

208 months

Wednesday 26th August 2015
quotequote all
ukaskew said:
You have to wonder for what possible reason Pirelli bother with the sport any more. They are made to produce tyres with limited life, so exactly the opposite of anything that would be useful in terms of road tyre research, their name is pretty much only ever mentioned in a negative light on race day.

I'm assuming it's costing them a hell of a lot of money to be in F1, but I'm not seeing the benefits. Sure they have significant brand awareness, but that's not a great deal of use if it's largely negative.
Totally agree, they must be wondering if it is really worth it. The message to the man in the street doesn't look good.

Ahonen

5,015 posts

278 months

Wednesday 26th August 2015
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Scuffers said:
That was a puncture, not random type failure.

For bridgestone, it was a one off, for pirelli, its the norm.
That looked like a delamination to me on Hakkinen's car. In fact, Simon, having studied it more closely that tyre is still inflated during the car's first rotation, so it isn't a puncture at all - it's a very explosive tyre failure. What makes you think it's a puncture?

Edit: I found Bridgestone's press release about it. Seems they didn't know what happened:
http://www.motorsport.com/f1/news/bridgestone-pres...

Since Silverstone 2013 what tyre failures have Pirelli had? If it's 'the norm' they must be happening quite regularly.

Edited by Ahonen on Wednesday 26th August 11:26

BlimeyCharlie

Original Poster:

901 posts

141 months

Monday 31st August 2015
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It seems Pirelli have concluded their investigation into Vettel's blow-out, so they say today (Monday).
Nobody else has done any investigating, so as I said originally Pirelli appear to be 'judge and jury' into their own 'product' failing.

Not only that, but they will let the world know their 'findings' almost a week away at Monza GP.

I wonder what they'll conclude? Wear, a cut, kerbs and the beak of a Dodo caused the puncture...


rubystone

11,252 posts

258 months

Tuesday 1st September 2015
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BlimeyCharlie said:
It seems Pirelli have concluded their investigation into Vettel's blow-out, so they say today (Monday).
Nobody else has done any investigating, so as I said originally Pirelli appear to be 'judge and jury' into their own 'product' failing.

Not only that, but they will let the world know their 'findings' almost a week away at Monza GP.

I wonder what they'll conclude? Wear, a cut, kerbs and the beak of a Dodo caused the puncture...
You forgot to add into the conclusions the "repeated abuse of the kerbs by the drivers, especially the modified one at the top of Eau Rouge just before the point where Vettel's tyre blew"



rdjohn

6,135 posts

194 months

Tuesday 1st September 2015
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rubystone said:
You forgot to add into the conclusions the "repeated abuse of the kerbs by the drivers, especially the modified one at the top of Eau Rouge just before the point where Vettel's tyre blew"
The WEC cars would have given those kerbs some hammer back in May, yet they can double stint at will

I suspect that the basic problem is the FIA requirement to produce non-durable tyres that is the fundamental issue here

anonymous-user

53 months

Tuesday 1st September 2015
quotequote all
rdjohn said:
rubystone said:
You forgot to add into the conclusions the "repeated abuse of the kerbs by the drivers, especially the modified one at the top of Eau Rouge just before the point where Vettel's tyre blew"
The WEC cars would have given those kerbs some hammer back in May, yet they can double stint at will

I suspect that the basic problem is the FIA requirement to produce non-durable tyres that is the fundamental issue here
Not a problem to build a casing with a tread that will wear out at any given rate but still stand being run over kerbs. Most manufacturers do it regularly and have been doing it for decades.


Rude-boy

22,227 posts

232 months

Tuesday 1st September 2015
quotequote all
rdjohn said:
rubystone said:
You forgot to add into the conclusions the "repeated abuse of the kerbs by the drivers, especially the modified one at the top of Eau Rouge just before the point where Vettel's tyre blew"
The WEC cars would have given those kerbs some hammer back in May, yet they can double stint at will

I suspect that the basic problem is the FIA requirement to produce non-durable tyres that is the fundamental issue here
I am no tyre man but the spec of WEC rubber and F1 rubber I strongly expect to be of an order of magnatude of difference not disimilar to that between F1 and road rubber.

rubystone

11,252 posts

258 months

Tuesday 1st September 2015
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Rude-boy said:
I am no tyre man but the spec of WEC rubber and F1 rubber I strongly expect to be of an order of magnatude of difference not disimilar to that between F1 and road rubber.
You don't need to be a tyre man to be correct. But there is also some truth in the other statements. Pirelli's error was to be too optimistic with their assessment of the wear rate. That kerb was changed during the race weekend though, no doubt after they set the 'safe' wear rate.

By contrast, I was at the MotoGP this weekend. I was stationed at the entrance to Maggots all weekend and watched bikes climb all over the kerbs all weekend, wet and dry. But the Moto2 race demonstrated just how good the wets are. They ran those tyres down to the canvas, yet not one failed.

Scuffers

20,887 posts

273 months

Wednesday 2nd September 2015
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rubystone said:
You don't need to be a tyre man to be correct. But there is also some truth in the other statements. Pirelli's error was to be too optimistic with their assessment of the wear rate. That kerb was changed during the race weekend though, no doubt after they set the 'safe' wear rate.

By contrast, I was at the MotoGP this weekend. I was stationed at the entrance to Maggots all weekend and watched bikes climb all over the kerbs all weekend, wet and dry. But the Moto2 race demonstrated just how good the wets are. They ran those tyres down to the canvas, yet not one failed.
exactly,

people need to understand the difference between a carcase failure and a tyre simply wearing out.

the FIA specified a tyre that wears out, not one that has catastrophic carcase failure.


rscott

14,690 posts

190 months

Wednesday 2nd September 2015
quotequote all
rdjohn said:
rubystone said:
You forgot to add into the conclusions the "repeated abuse of the kerbs by the drivers, especially the modified one at the top of Eau Rouge just before the point where Vettel's tyre blew"
The WEC cars would have given those kerbs some hammer back in May, yet they can double stint at will

I suspect that the basic problem is the FIA requirement to produce non-durable tyres that is the fundamental issue here
The kerbs had changed since WEC - they had removed several sausage kerbs on some of the corners.

entropy

5,403 posts

202 months

Wednesday 2nd September 2015
quotequote all
According to the Torygraph it was a cut tyre but "Pirelli is expected to say wear was simply a contributing factor."

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/sport/motorsport/formul...

Muzzer79

9,806 posts

186 months

Wednesday 2nd September 2015
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I find it hard to criticize Pirelli when the navel-starers involved in F1 can't even agree to come together and let them test tyres on a physical track with a current car.

They are either told that it would give an advantage to one team (witness Mercedes in 2013) or it's vetoed on the grounds of cost if everyone wants to participate.

They're told to produce tyres that will wear out. Somewhere after that, there's a line at which the tyre will fail. If you don't let them test, how can they find that line definitively?

Scuffers

20,887 posts

273 months

Wednesday 2nd September 2015
quotequote all
Muzzer79 said:
I find it hard to criticize Pirelli when the navel-starers involved in F1 can't even agree to come together and let them test tyres on a physical track with a current car.

They are either told that it would give an advantage to one team (witness Mercedes in 2013) or it's vetoed on the grounds of cost if everyone wants to participate.

They're told to produce tyres that will wear out. Somewhere after that, there's a line at which the tyre will fail. If you don't let them test, how can they find that line definitively?
that's all massively missing the point.

Vettel's tyre had not worn out, period.

it suffered a catastrophic failure, the pertinent question is why?

anonymous-user

53 months

Wednesday 2nd September 2015
quotequote all
Scuffers said:
Muzzer79 said:
I find it hard to criticize Pirelli when the navel-starers involved in F1 can't even agree to come together and let them test tyres on a physical track with a current car.

They are either told that it would give an advantage to one team (witness Mercedes in 2013) or it's vetoed on the grounds of cost if everyone wants to participate.

They're told to produce tyres that will wear out. Somewhere after that, there's a line at which the tyre will fail. If you don't let them test, how can they find that line definitively?
that's all massively missing the point.

Vettel's tyre had not worn out, period.

it suffered a catastrophic failure, the pertinent question is why?
Exactly. It is still odd that a cut makes the casing throw the tread rubber and subsequently fail. One would expect a failure due to a cut would bring deflation and subsequent failure. From what I remember the tyre was still inflated after the tread flew off and it then failed, but I stand to be corrected.


anonymous-user

53 months

Wednesday 2nd September 2015
quotequote all
Rude-boy said:
rdjohn said:
rubystone said:
You forgot to add into the conclusions the "repeated abuse of the kerbs by the drivers, especially the modified one at the top of Eau Rouge just before the point where Vettel's tyre blew"
The WEC cars would have given those kerbs some hammer back in May, yet they can double stint at will

I suspect that the basic problem is the FIA requirement to produce non-durable tyres that is the fundamental issue here
I am no tyre man but the spec of WEC rubber and F1 rubber I strongly expect to be of an order of magnatude of difference not disimilar to that between F1 and road rubber.
Nothing to do with the spec of the rubber, it's the spec of the tyre that is in question. And in that respect a WEC tyre will be much closer to an F1 tyre than any road tyre.


Ahonen

5,015 posts

278 months

Thursday 3rd September 2015
quotequote all
rscott said:
rdjohn said:
rubystone said:
You forgot to add into the conclusions the "repeated abuse of the kerbs by the drivers, especially the modified one at the top of Eau Rouge just before the point where Vettel's tyre blew"
The WEC cars would have given those kerbs some hammer back in May, yet they can double stint at will

I suspect that the basic problem is the FIA requirement to produce non-durable tyres that is the fundamental issue here
The kerbs had changed since WEC - they had removed several sausage kerbs on some of the corners.
This is a significant point. Watching onboard footage from the WEC shows that they simply couldn't use the kerbs at the top of Raidillon to the same extent as some of the F1 cars were.

Megaflow

9,345 posts

224 months

Thursday 3rd September 2015
quotequote all
Ahonen said:
rscott said:
rdjohn said:
rubystone said:
You forgot to add into the conclusions the "repeated abuse of the kerbs by the drivers, especially the modified one at the top of Eau Rouge just before the point where Vettel's tyre blew"
The WEC cars would have given those kerbs some hammer back in May, yet they can double stint at will

I suspect that the basic problem is the FIA requirement to produce non-durable tyres that is the fundamental issue here
The kerbs had changed since WEC - they had removed several sausage kerbs on some of the corners.
This is a significant point. Watching onboard footage from the WEC shows that they simply couldn't use the kerbs at the top of Raidillon to the same extent as some of the F1 cars were.
Could you two kindly stop bring such facts to bhing session. Thanks.

wink

Ahonen

5,015 posts

278 months

Thursday 3rd September 2015
quotequote all
hehe Sorry.