+++ The Official Italian (Monza) Grand Prix Thread 2015 +++

[ukaskew]

Agree, would love to see Manor pick up a point.

I just think the penalties are a farce, it's hardly going to help bring new fans to the sport when almost half the grid has no relation to their qualifying position.

[JonRB]

ukaskew said:

Agree, would love to see Manor pick up a point.

I just think the penalties are a farce, it's hardly going to help bring new fans to the sport when almost half the grid has no relation to their qualifying position.

The whole thing is a farce right now, what with development tokens, no in-season testing, raps on the knuckles for the most minor of infringements, and everything.

I recently tried to explain the current F1 to someone who likes motorsport but doesn't follow F1 and he simply stopped me and said "are you serious? That's bonkers" and I had to agree with him.

[Vaud]

Agreed. The loss of testing is crazy. Tokens are complex and badly explained by the FIA - as is how amazing these engines are...

[JonRB]

Vaud said:

Agreed. The loss of testing is crazy. Tokens are complex and badly explained by the FIA - as is how amazing these engines are...

Exactly. Rather than bad-mouthing the noise etc., and being incredibly negative and dismissive, Bernie should be bigging up that these are HYBRIDS and how right-on and sexy that is, and how much less fuel they use now, and far better hybrids are than the milk floats in Formula-E and the like.

The manufacturers pushed for this kind of powertrain in order to become more "relevant", and now they're being hamstrung by not being able to develop them and hone them. Personally I think it was a stupid move to commit everyone to spending BILLIONS of dollars on R&D for a brand new powertrain formula in the name of "cost cutting" when they could have simply increased the contribution of the existing KERS system but that is water under the bridge and moot.

The fact is that everyone apart from Mercedes-Benz has done a half-arsed job on the new powertrains and needs to play some serious catch-up. And the way to do that is to allow everyone to hone, refine and innovate. The law of Diminishing Returns would mean they would reach rough parity soon enough.

[williamp]

JonRB said:

ukaskew said:

Agree, would love to see Manor pick up a point.

I just think the penalties are a farce, it's hardly going to help bring new fans to the sport when almost half the grid has no relation to their qualifying position.

The whole thing is a farce right now, what with development tokens, no in-season testing, raps on the knuckles for the most minor of infringements, and everything.

I recently tried to explain the current F1 to someone who likes motorsport but doesn't follow F1 and he simply stopped me and said "are you serious? That's bonkers" and I had to agree with him.

...but you've got to say: Manor haven't picked up any penalties yet. So it can be done by non-Mercedes cars...

[FeelingLucky]

ash73 said:

and it's interesting Ron is determined it's impossible to win with a customer engine.

When was the last time a customer engine won with the new Turbo/Hybrid rules??

[Hungrymc]

ash73 said:

JonRB said:

turns out it wasn't all Martin Whitmarsh's fault after all.

They were doing a much better job with Whitmarsh at the helm, and it's interesting Ron is determined it's impossible to win with a customer engine, while everyone at Merc (including Lewis) are resisting pressure from Bernie to supply engines to RBR because they fear they will dominate.

I think it's fair to say they would be a serious competitor.

But the other angle is would you want to be in partnership with RBR after all the crap we've heard from Horner and the team? Nothing would be his fault, there would be accusations of Merc delivering poor engines and sabotaging the cars etc if everything didn't work out. Horner and the team have shown themselves as people you really, really would not want along side you in a battle.

[hornetrider]

PaulV said:

'Pick up points for the team'


Nice one Lewis.

Britneys reaction to that is priceless! It's on the BBC website.

[swisstoni]

Doink said:

Gaz. said:

ash73 said:

This is why I support Nico, he's not as naturally gifted but (almost) makes up for it with analysis and plain hard work; personally I respect that. Lewis' driving is amazing to watch, but I think he's as much a passenger as the rest of us. Having said that it's quite cute how some weeks he sandbags and saves it all for Q3, other weeks he puts in a fast lap in FP and says there's more where that came from, forcing Nico into a mistake.

It's bound to weigh on Nico's mind after they work together for a while and share all their data; the problem is if he finds a step on the setup it will just be put on Lewis' car too.

You're massively underestimating Nico there, remember he is the only team mate to give Micheal Schumacher a shoeing.

No, he's the only driver that was ALLOWED to give MS a shoeing because Mercedes let them race

That's why I never bought into the notion that Nico was ever an inferior driver that Hamilton could easily dominate. I don't know exactly what the record was Rosberg V Schumacher but even after Schumacher was well and truly bedded in at the team and had enough time to shake off any ring rust, he rarely landed a punch on Rosberg. That was enough for me to realise that Rosberg was in the top rank of drivers.

[andyps]

Hungrymc said:

I think it's fair to say they would be a serious competitor.

But the other angle is would you want to be in partnership with RBR after all the crap we've heard from Horner and the team? Nothing would be his fault, there would be accusations of Merc delivering poor engines and sabotaging the cars etc if everything didn't work out. Horner and the team have shown themselves as people you really, really would not want along side you in a battle.

Agree with your points there. If I was Mercedes and did agree to supply Red Bull I would ensure that there was a clause in the contract that meant if Horner or anyone from RB tried to imply the engines were poor or other criticism as they have about Renault this year they wouldn't have an engine at all for the next race.

I suspect Renault will be as keen to get away from Red Bull as Red Bull are to drop them, just hopefully Red Bull will end up paying for the first season of a Renault F1 team for breaking the contract early. Not sure what the implications are in relation to Infiniti and other partners.

[Hungrymc]

swisstoni said:

That's why I never bought into the notion that Nico was ever an inferior driver that Hamilton could easily dominate. I don't know exactly what the record was Rosberg V Schumacher but even after Schumacher was well and truly bedded in at the team and had enough time to shake off any ring rust, he rarely landed a punch on Rosberg. That was enough for me to realise that Rosberg was in the top rank of drivers.

I perhaps don't give nico the credit he deserves for that spell. It's very hard to determine how much the 4 years out affected Schumacher. My feeling is that it's impossible to come back at the same level and you can't afford to give away 1 or 2% in F1 (What Rossi is doing in MOTOGP is astounding - that's after a few years in the wilderness as opposed to a few years out). I'm sure Schumacher wasn't at his best, but to be fair, Nico beat him pretty comprehensively, more so than I really realized at the time.

[FeelingLucky]

ash73 said:

FeelingLucky said:

When was the last time a customer engine won with the new Turbo/Hybrid rules??

You mean in the 1 season they've been using them? You're right, game over, it's a statistical certainty

Brawn won the championship with a customer Merc engine bolted onto their car 5 mins before the first race.

Who's talking stats? I'm dealing with facts.
It's hardly one season either is it?

Ron's entitled to his opinion, and he's yet to be proved wrong. Ferrari, Mercedes and Renault power units have all won GPs, and ALL with the factory supported teams, so "he he" as much as you like.

[FeelingLucky]

ash73 said:

FeelingLucky said:

"he he" as much as you like.

I will, because it's nonsense to make predictions based on an engine formula that was only introduced in 2014. Williams could have easily won a couple of Grand Prix with Merc customer engines if they hadn't been so negative on strategy.

Surely you're aware Ron was speaking of Championships?
I merely pointed out that nobody (as yet) has won a single race without a factory power unit, and you oddly, pointed out that I was right.

It appears to be generally accepted that Mercedes have the best power unit, so one may think when the factory team fumble the ball, another Mercedes powered car would be there to mop up, but this has not been the case.

Williams themselves (when questioned regarding strategy) said they could not have won the race. You clearly know something they don't? Please share...

[Jasandjules]

Does anyone else think that the Ponies are going to get the jump on Lewis and go for it into turn one, to the roar of the crowd?

[Leithen]

Jasandjules said:

Does anyone else think that the Ponies are going to get the jump on Lewis and go for it into turn one, to the roar of the crowd?

I dearly hope so. Hamilton ought to repass with ease, and Bernie needs a reminder that the sport still needs Monza and its crowds.

[MikeyC]

more 'random' penalties applied: Max Verstappen given a drive through penalty for 'ussafe release'

given the poor top speed of the Renault engined cars, is there much point in him bothering to start the race ?

edit: ah yes, there's always the McHondas to beat

[Doink]

Jasandjules said:

Does anyone else think that the Ponies are going to get the jump on Lewis and go for it into turn one, to the roar of the crowd?

Probably, Lewis might not even put up too much resistance either, Nico was asked about what he could do from forth, he answered the Ferraris wouldn't be a problem but he has no chance with Lewis, so even with an inferior engine to Lewis he still thinks he has the legs for Ferrari so if that's the case it would appear Lewis would be able to drive around the Ferraris whenever he chose to

[RichB]

Moominator said:

Jasandjules said:

Does anyone else think that the Ponies are going to get the jump on Lewis and go for it into turn one, to the roar of the crowd?

Of course I dont know why but Lewis always seems to bog down.

I don't remember him "bogging down" at Abu Dhabi last year. The crucial 50 point, last race of the year.

But 50% of the time earlier this year both Mercs appeared to be slower off the line than the Ferraris. I do wonder if that was a software issue.

[suffolk009]

I read elsewhere that the stewards have handed out a total of 168 grip place penalties.

[Vaud]

Doink said:

Jasandjules said:

Does anyone else think that the Ponies are going to get the jump on Lewis and go for it into turn one, to the roar of the crowd?

Probably, Lewis might not even put up too much resistance either, Nico was asked about what he could do from forth, he answered the Ferraris wouldn't be a problem but he has no chance with Lewis, so even with an inferior engine to Lewis he still thinks he has the legs for Ferrari so if that's the case it would appear Lewis would be able to drive around the Ferraris whenever he chose to

Or if you are Lewis, be worried about the same engine fault occurring on yours. Ferrari might have the legs on Nico (might) - a Ferrari 1/2 and electrify Monza.