+++ The Official Italian (Monza) Grand Prix Thread 2015 +++
Discussion
Scuffers said:
Now, some say that's against the spirit of the regs, but that's bull, there is no spirit of the regs, if it's not in black and white, it means nothing.
I know the spirit of the regulations. It's to get around them in any way possible that doesn't result in you getting caught 
moanthebairns said:
I guess if you’re the kinda guy who sits and analysis's everything some guy flippantly typed whilst flicking from autocad at work on a Monday having watching the highlights the night before, then I can see why you're in amazement of 5 laps at qualifying pace in a 70 lap race with someone 25 seconds behind in a much faster car.
Every other week we hear how boring these cars are to drive from the racers, how they aren't on the limit then when asked to punch in 5 laps at quick “race” pace no questions asked, not qualifying pace. This suddenly changes what was an utterly tedious glorified track day into one for the history books. To sit and appreciate it and go wow, f
k me, it’s the pinnacle of 4 wheel motor racing, they should be doing this for 70 laps not 5. What we see from this is that for 65 laps of that race Hamilton wasn’t pushing 100 % or anywhere near. It’s a sad reflection on it to be honest.
Have they ever driven at 100% for the whole race?Every other week we hear how boring these cars are to drive from the racers, how they aren't on the limit then when asked to punch in 5 laps at quick “race” pace no questions asked, not qualifying pace. This suddenly changes what was an utterly tedious glorified track day into one for the history books. To sit and appreciate it and go wow, f
k me, it’s the pinnacle of 4 wheel motor racing, they should be doing this for 70 laps not 5. What we see from this is that for 65 laps of that race Hamilton wasn’t pushing 100 % or anywhere near. It’s a sad reflection on it to be honest. These current cars are amongst the most difficult to handle in recent times. Alonso drifting out of a corner at one time during the race.
All driving is risk balancing. LH was told to push to the limit. That's at every corner. We saw him lock up at one time.
Now if he slides off then he loses the advantage. If he slides off into the stones, he loses any points. If he flat spots his tyres then he might have had to come in for more.
At the end of the race he was exhausted, probably not physically, but the concentration for that final few laps had drained him. There's no way he could have kept that level up for the whole race.
I think Moss, probably the best closed wheel driver I've seen, was the first person to describe driving in a race by percentages.
Most races have 3 main phases: the first few laps where drivers settle into the race, choose their slot and, if they are out of position, through qually or a bad start, move up to their slot. Then we have the middle bit, mainly strategy coming into play here, but, as with Sunday, this might include a driver coming through from the back of the field. then we have the final few laps.
We had everything at Monza. That's what should be reflected on.
I'm an F1 nerd and I was excited by the race. Kimi and Verstappen especially. The closing by Rosberg towards Vettel didn't materilise into the battle one was hoping for, but it was, up until the blow up, rivetting. And just a bit before that the call to Hamilton which we did not have explained.
What was not to like? Try reflecting on that for a while. Given some of the races we have every year, throughout the history of F1, that was a good and exciting race.
The only race I remember in the vaguely modern era was Hungary 1998 - where Schumacher needed 19 quali type laps on a 3 stop strategy.
http://www.independent.co.uk/sport/motor-racing-sc...
And that was 19 laps, not full distance.
In 30 years of watching, I can't recall at time of 100% flat out all race.
http://www.independent.co.uk/sport/motor-racing-sc...
And that was 19 laps, not full distance.
In 30 years of watching, I can't recall at time of 100% flat out all race.
The way I saw it Lewis's head was all over the place when bono came on the phone and said pull a gap basically and no questions just execute Lewis!!!!!!
They guy must be thinking s#@t what's happened.......is vettel catching me or what?
Bono - hammertime laptimes lewis no questions we'll explain it at the end!
Lewis must be thinking f#@k something's up
Lewis - I haven't got much pace left in me, what do I need to do? I can't go much quicker!
Bono - what your doing is great Lewis thats all we need just stabilise on pace and that is great!
Bono - no need for any risks just keep doing what your doing!
Lewis now doesn't know if his increased pace is enough now that its stabilised or should he take more risks and stabilise, bono tells him zero radio discussion just get on it, its like trying to get a message across to someone before another person is about to walk in the room and you need to say it before they come in.
Lewis doesn't know if his increased pace is enough or should he go faster but that will involve risks, the garage aren't giving him any clear info on why so in the end with his head all over the place the guy does what he does best and just goes for it and pulls half a second per lap on vettel who was trying all race to catch him so he wouldn't of been hanging around either
The lad wasn't scared, he does what he's told, he just wanted to know why and got all flustered when they could tell him, what would you do at 230mph!
They guy must be thinking s#@t what's happened.......is vettel catching me or what?
Bono - hammertime laptimes lewis no questions we'll explain it at the end!
Lewis must be thinking f#@k something's up
Lewis - I haven't got much pace left in me, what do I need to do? I can't go much quicker!
Bono - what your doing is great Lewis thats all we need just stabilise on pace and that is great!
Bono - no need for any risks just keep doing what your doing!
Lewis now doesn't know if his increased pace is enough now that its stabilised or should he take more risks and stabilise, bono tells him zero radio discussion just get on it, its like trying to get a message across to someone before another person is about to walk in the room and you need to say it before they come in.
Lewis doesn't know if his increased pace is enough or should he go faster but that will involve risks, the garage aren't giving him any clear info on why so in the end with his head all over the place the guy does what he does best and just goes for it and pulls half a second per lap on vettel who was trying all race to catch him so he wouldn't of been hanging around either
The lad wasn't scared, he does what he's told, he just wanted to know why and got all flustered when they could tell him, what would you do at 230mph!
Edited by Doink on Monday 7th September 20:03
moanthebairns said:
I guess if you’re the kinda guy who sits and analysis's everything some guy flippantly typed whilst flicking from autocad at work on a Monday having watching the highlights the night before, then I can see why you're in amazement of 5 laps at qualifying pace in a 70 lap race with someone 25 seconds behind in a much faster car.
Every other week we hear how boring these cars are to drive from the racers, how they aren't on the limit then when asked to punch in 5 laps at quick “race” pace no questions asked, not qualifying pace. This suddenly changes what was an utterly tedious glorified track day into one for the history books. To sit and appreciate it and go wow, fk me, it’s the pinnacle of 4 wheel motor racing, they should be doing this for 70 laps not 5. What we see from this is that for 65 laps of that race Hamilton wasn’t pushing 100 % or anywhere near. It’s a sad reflection on it to be honest.
You're pretty quick to throw abuse and insults about. I'd suggest if you're writing so flippantly, it might be an idea to take a moment to think it through (unless you're trolling)Every other week we hear how boring these cars are to drive from the racers, how they aren't on the limit then when asked to punch in 5 laps at quick “race” pace no questions asked, not qualifying pace. This suddenly changes what was an utterly tedious glorified track day into one for the history books. To sit and appreciate it and go wow, f
k me, it’s the pinnacle of 4 wheel motor racing, they should be doing this for 70 laps not 5. What we see from this is that for 65 laps of that race Hamilton wasn’t pushing 100 % or anywhere near. It’s a sad reflection on it to be honest. Maybe it's your flippancy that stops you grasping Lewis's confusion at the instructions. Have you ever heard such a strange set of radio transmissions in F1? I don't think I have but I could be wrong. Lewis will have known they were having to defend something but will not have understood what it could be. Reasonable to be a bit irritated at increasing the risk level when the race seemed won and when he can't work out what he's trying to avoid.
I haven't heard any drivers say the cars are easy to drive. I've heard people say the regulations with tyre and fuel conservation make for dull / frustrating spells in the race. Technology, strategy, the driver all count in F1 and always have.
F1 is what it is. You want to see closer racing you need to drop down the formula to series with less cost and less technological competition.... You know this but I think you enjoy having a moan and a b
h about it. And moaning and bhing about someone moaning and bhing, who actually did significantly less moaning and bhing than you (which is a highlight of this thread for me).Hungrymc said:
Maybe it's your flippancy that stops you grasping Lewis's confusion at the instructions. Have you ever heard such a strange set of radio transmissions in F1? I don't think I have but I could be wrong. Lewis will have known they were having to defend something but will not have understood what it could be. Reasonable to be a bit irritated at increasing the risk level when the race seemed won and when he can't work out what he's trying to avoid.
We see much more than the drivers with modern coverage, and the commentators and all of the fans (as shown by the posts during the race) had absolutely no idea what was going on. As you said, I have never heard such a strange instruction in F1 before. It's bound to be confusing - fend off someone who is a massive distance behind you for no reason?NRS said:
We see much more than the drivers with modern coverage, and the commentators and all of the fans (as shown by the posts during the race) had absolutely no idea what was going on. As you said, I have never heard such a strange instruction in F1 before. It's bound to be confusing - fend off someone who is a massive distance behind you for no reason?
Imagine if Lewis had binned it while trying to open the lead up to 25 or 30 seconds? To then have the inquiry find there was no issue.... You could see total confusion on the Merc pit wall when it was all kicking off. I imagine they didn't want to publicise or in anyway communicate the summons to the stewards as they had lots of data showing they had done nothing wrong and so didn't want to add credence to the claim?
Also suspect they also didn't want to encourage Ferrari to push any harder to keep the gap under 25 seconds by telling Lewis what they were aiming at?
NRS said:
Hungrymc said:
Maybe it's your flippancy that stops you grasping Lewis's confusion at the instructions. Have you ever heard such a strange set of radio transmissions in F1? I don't think I have but I could be wrong. Lewis will have known they were having to defend something but will not have understood what it could be. Reasonable to be a bit irritated at increasing the risk level when the race seemed won and when he can't work out what he's trying to avoid.
We see much more than the drivers with modern coverage, and the commentators and all of the fans (as shown by the posts during the race) had absolutely no idea what was going on. As you said, I have never heard such a strange instruction in F1 before. It's bound to be confusing - fend off someone who is a massive distance behind you for no reason?ajprice said:
Watching the BBC highlights, not knowing the results, I thought they were trying to get the gap out for a pit stop and still rejoin ahead of Vettel. Then I was wondering what kind of car problem would be showing on the telemetry, not affect the performance but need a pit stop to fix. It was weird.
Sky commentary team were hypothesising some kind of hydraulic pressure issue - it can be topped up in the race unlike the other fluids. Apparently the cars have a quick access system to do this although I can't remember it being used in a race for a front running car.Derek Smith said:
These current cars are amongst the most difficult to handle in recent times. .
Perhaps you know better but not according to several of the drivers their not. Button, Alonso, Vettel, even Massa have all said the cars aren't difficult enough to drive, which is why we have inexperienced kids making a fist of it.Maybe they're hard to drive when they're on the limit for a few laps of qualifying but not for most of the race. It's still a tyre management exercise, remember, more than ever before.
swisstoni said:
Difficult decision for the pit.
Maybe they were afraid of jeopardising their case by even acknowledging the possibility of a penalty. So had to get all mysterious with Hamilton on the radio.
He must have been imagining all sorts.
I suspect this is it. Didn't want to be seen to be taking it too seriously, but trying to get the theoretical 25 second buffer. I'm sure they would handle it slightly differently if a similar situation arose again (unless it's the new standard code - go fast when there is no apparent need = building a buffer for possible time penalty).Maybe they were afraid of jeopardising their case by even acknowledging the possibility of a penalty. So had to get all mysterious with Hamilton on the radio.
He must have been imagining all sorts.
Hungrymc said:
swisstoni said:
Difficult decision for the pit.
Maybe they were afraid of jeopardising their case by even acknowledging the possibility of a penalty. So had to get all mysterious with Hamilton on the radio.
He must have been imagining all sorts.
I suspect this is it. Didn't want to be seen to be taking it too seriously, but trying to get the theoretical 25 second buffer. I'm sure they would handle it slightly differently if a similar situation arose again (unless it's the new standard code - go fast when there is no apparent need = building a buffer for possible time penalty).Maybe they were afraid of jeopardising their case by even acknowledging the possibility of a penalty. So had to get all mysterious with Hamilton on the radio.
He must have been imagining all sorts.
Vaud said:
Moominator said:
Lewis was perplexed why he was asked to peg it with just a few laps to go with NO explanation. I was confused too. He knew he was miles ahead so why risk it? Afterall at that point he had 'earned/done his job 22times (secs) ahead of a 4time world champion.
His words? 'That wasnt cool'.
Indeed. But also sometimes you need to trust your team principal and know that they have access to more information than you. Risk was Ferrari picking up on the exact number and the "why"?His words? 'That wasnt cool'.
monamimate said:
I don't think one needs to be Sherlock to realise that had they announced to all and sundry that they needed a 25 second gap to win, Vettel and Ferrari would have immediately responded.
Even though everyone was speculating they needed 25 seconds for a pit stop. So Ferrari will have been questioning this and presumably responding as best they could anyway. A different cause but the same result?Sherlock deduced the correct result anyway but for the wrong reasons.
Edited by Hungrymc on Tuesday 8th September 06:26
El Guapo said:
Exactly - do what you have been asked to do, then discuss later during the debrief.
He did. In those last laps he was looking for guidance as to how hard to push as the comms were a little confusing. Push hard & Push hard but don't take risks & what your doing is fine, don't take risks - to which he basically said I am taking risks to set these times, what do you need me to do?The only 'complaint' was on the slow down lap when he said 'the last few laps were not cool man'. Not exactly a shocking attack and the team said 'yes, we know, we'll explain when we see you'.
If he pushed too had and had went off, everyone would be blaming him and saying the driver has to make the final call. When he looks for clarity of what needs to be done to try and judge the risk, people have a go.
Hungrymc said:
moanthebairns said:
I guess if you’re the kinda guy who sits and analysis's everything some guy flippantly typed whilst flicking from autocad at work on a Monday having watching the highlights the night before, then I can see why you're in amazement of 5 laps at qualifying pace in a 70 lap race with someone 25 seconds behind in a much faster car.
Every other week we hear how boring these cars are to drive from the racers, how they aren't on the limit then when asked to punch in 5 laps at quick “race” pace no questions asked, not qualifying pace. This suddenly changes what was an utterly tedious glorified track day into one for the history books. To sit and appreciate it and go wow, fk me, it’s the pinnacle of 4 wheel motor racing, they should be doing this for 70 laps not 5. What we see from this is that for 65 laps of that race Hamilton wasn’t pushing 100 % or anywhere near. It’s a sad reflection on it to be honest.
You're pretty quick to throw abuse and insults about. I'd suggest if you're writing so flippantly, it might be an idea to take a moment to think it through (unless you're trolling)Every other week we hear how boring these cars are to drive from the racers, how they aren't on the limit then when asked to punch in 5 laps at quick “race” pace no questions asked, not qualifying pace. This suddenly changes what was an utterly tedious glorified track day into one for the history books. To sit and appreciate it and go wow, f
k me, it’s the pinnacle of 4 wheel motor racing, they should be doing this for 70 laps not 5. What we see from this is that for 65 laps of that race Hamilton wasn’t pushing 100 % or anywhere near. It’s a sad reflection on it to be honest. Maybe it's your flippancy that stops you grasping Lewis's confusion at the instructions. Have you ever heard such a strange set of radio transmissions in F1? I don't think I have but I could be wrong. Lewis will have known they were having to defend something but will not have understood what it could be. Reasonable to be a bit irritated at increasing the risk level when the race seemed won and when he can't work out what he's trying to avoid.
I haven't heard any drivers say the cars are easy to drive. I've heard people say the regulations with tyre and fuel conservation make for dull / frustrating spells in the race. Technology, strategy, the driver all count in F1 and always have.
F1 is what it is. You want to see closer racing you need to drop down the formula to series with less cost and less technological competition.... You know this but I think you enjoy having a moan and a b
h about it. And moaning and bhing about someone moaning and bhing, who actually did significantly less moaning and bhing than you (which is a highlight of this thread for me).Hungrymc said:
I haven't heard any drivers say the cars are easy to drive. I've heard people say the regulations with tyre and fuel conservation make for dull / frustrating spells in the race.
listen harder then, plenty have said just that.Last race even Brundel commented that in years gone by, parabolica was a hang-on-for-grim-death corner, these days they are making steering wheel switch adjustments mid-corner...
NRS said:
However my point was we didn't KNOW what happened with the measurements and so they could have been done at the correct temperatures and so on.
Interestingly it was confirmed that the tyre temperatures were also measured at the same time to see if they were below the limit of 110° but this was not mentioned by the stewards as (they thought) it was not related to the tyre pressure infringement.It was commented that the temperatures were well below the required limit.
Edited by Le TVR on Tuesday 8th September 08:18
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