Head injuries, what more can be done?
Discussion
I am not sure how the canopy would be any help, obviously the CFRP route could be taken, but could this be made in a form that is completely transparent? - I am unsure, also if you have an enclosed canopy, then how do you tackle the issue of the car coming to rest on its roof i.e. does it have some sort of eject system like a fighter jet? would this then right the car with it's force but ultimately cause the driver more harm, or is the driver left upside down until the marshals (whom we have seen in the recent GP's Japanese for example are unable to even move a upright car off the track on a crane without bashing it against many railings) come to their rescue.
I am just not sure that a closed cockpit F1 car would be any more inherently safe than the existing systems, as the canopy brings many, many more questionable safety variables into play...The only option is that there is a complete redesign of the formula, but by which point from a purely safety point of view the cars look semi identical to the LMP1's - the drivetrain is a different issue but if, from a purely aesthetic perspective the cars look the same as LMP's, but the racing is better in endurance then does F1 have a viable future?
I am just not sure that a closed cockpit F1 car would be any more inherently safe than the existing systems, as the canopy brings many, many more questionable safety variables into play...The only option is that there is a complete redesign of the formula, but by which point from a purely safety point of view the cars look semi identical to the LMP1's - the drivetrain is a different issue but if, from a purely aesthetic perspective the cars look the same as LMP's, but the racing is better in endurance then does F1 have a viable future?
There was a documentary a few years ago about safety in single seat racing cars. The point was made that when remedying one cause of injury, new ones were created. The example being that when Indycar nosecones were strengthened to reduce foot and ankle injuries, the cars then started piercing one another in T-bone accidents, causing injuries to upper legs and pelvis, which then required strengthening to the cockpit area.
The worries about what knock-on effects canopies or windshields may cause are valid and must be investigated but there have already been too many deaths and injuries which may have been avoided had there been better head protection.
The worries about what knock-on effects canopies or windshields may cause are valid and must be investigated but there have already been too many deaths and injuries which may have been avoided had there been better head protection.
Interesting Autosport article about closed cockpits and other alternatives to protect drivers - http://www.autosport.com/news/report.php/id/120489
Can you imagine the cockpit temperatures in an enclosed cockpit at somewhere like Malaysia? It would be absolutely unbearable to be in such a small enclosed space surrounded by hot batteries, engine, radiators etc.
Any ventilation would compromise the aerodynamics so the designers would minimise it.
Any ventilation would compromise the aerodynamics so the designers would minimise it.
Doink said:
Sf_Manta said:
marshall100 said:
SeeFive said:
Given the amount of crap that collects on a visor during a GP, which of course tear offs deal with, how would the canopy be kept clean and vision clear in the event, for example of a car losing viscous fluid in front of you?
We could be creating a whole new problem by putting on canopies that cannot be efficiently cleaned while on the move. The question is, following an accident killing a blinded driver, would canopies be outlawed?
I've been using rip n roll films on my goggles in enduro's for some time. I'm certain the F1 guys could come up with something as simple and workable with the amount of funds at their disposal.We could be creating a whole new problem by putting on canopies that cannot be efficiently cleaned while on the move. The question is, following an accident killing a blinded driver, would canopies be outlawed?
Secondly the argument about screenwash type cleaners getting onto the track is also a none starter for me after all we race in the rain so a bit of glass cleaner....... WTF!!!
Picture the scene. The car in front has a big failure, covering your screen in any of the possibilities of engine, diff, gearbox and hydraulic fluid. You already have half a race full of general screen grime there already helping it stick. You are just passing the pits and have a whole lap to do with reduced visibility. The guy behind is in the same situation but is Maldonado!
With an open cockpit, you get all that on your visor and simply remove a tear off. So does Thug and you all go on your merry way. In a closed cockpit, both of you have reduced visibility and limited options on what to do. Ever tried to remove hot, used oil from a visor without tear offs... In the rain...? How are you going to do that from within your closed cockpit on the move until you can get outside assistance? You back off to drive in your comfort / vision zone... what will Thug do?
I am not suggesting that this is a blocker. I am just suggesting that it needs to be thought through a bit. The rare and clearly critical issue of going upside down / driver extraction etc is not the only problem that closed cockpits introduce.
SeeFive said:
None of which address cleaning the screen on the move. Also, where is the argument about screen wash on the track? It would appear that you are the one who has raised it. WTF indeed.
Picture the scene. The car in front has a big failure, covering your screen in any of the possibilities of engine, diff, gearbox and hydraulic fluid. You already have half a race full of general screen grime there already helping it stick. You are just passing the pits and have a whole lap to do with reduced visibility. The guy behind is in the same situation but is Maldonado!
With an open cockpit, you get all that on your visor and simply remove a tear off. So does Thug and you all go on your merry way. In a closed cockpit, both of you have reduced visibility and limited options on what to do. Ever tried to remove hot, used oil from a visor without tear offs... In the rain...? How are you going to do that from within your closed cockpit on the move until you can get outside assistance? You back off to drive in your comfort / vision zone... what will Thug do?
I am not suggesting that this is a blocker. I am just suggesting that it needs to be thought through a bit. The rare and clearly critical issue of going upside down / driver extraction etc is not the only problem that closed cockpits introduce.
Presumably it's a scenario that LMP1 drivers also have to deal with. Their cars are similar in performance to f1 cars and they are fighting through slow traffic, at night and in the rain for at least 6 hours. Picture the scene. The car in front has a big failure, covering your screen in any of the possibilities of engine, diff, gearbox and hydraulic fluid. You already have half a race full of general screen grime there already helping it stick. You are just passing the pits and have a whole lap to do with reduced visibility. The guy behind is in the same situation but is Maldonado!
With an open cockpit, you get all that on your visor and simply remove a tear off. So does Thug and you all go on your merry way. In a closed cockpit, both of you have reduced visibility and limited options on what to do. Ever tried to remove hot, used oil from a visor without tear offs... In the rain...? How are you going to do that from within your closed cockpit on the move until you can get outside assistance? You back off to drive in your comfort / vision zone... what will Thug do?
I am not suggesting that this is a blocker. I am just suggesting that it needs to be thought through a bit. The rare and clearly critical issue of going upside down / driver extraction etc is not the only problem that closed cockpits introduce.
I cant see a bit of washer fluid posing much risk to other cars to be honest, at F1 speeds it will be atomised more or less immediately and there are plenty of other slippery liguids the the cars carry which can spill out too.
I'm trying to recall the last time an F1 car or indy car went pop and sicked it's guts up on a track? It's a fairly rare event in this day and age.
It'll take something more than Wilson's tragic demise to see some significant changes imo.
The easier solution probably lies within helmet design, maybe some sort of additional impact absorbing layer employed in an outer shell? Still leaves the visor as the weak spot taking Senna's accident into consideration.
It'll take something more than Wilson's tragic demise to see some significant changes imo.
The easier solution probably lies within helmet design, maybe some sort of additional impact absorbing layer employed in an outer shell? Still leaves the visor as the weak spot taking Senna's accident into consideration.
Its hard to imagine a solution that will solve this and retain the look of current F1.
Any structure forward of the driver needs to have minimal effect on visibility. Unless completely enclosed there will always be a risk of something hitting the driver on the head. An aero screen that allows the driver to exit through an open top could be high enough to prevent large items like wheels but may not have prevent something small like a spring It will still leave the questions of cleaning it . Having hit a bumble bee at 80ish mph even something so small can really be felt. In order to protect from the weigh of a flying wheel or Columbian they need to be thick, thicker material means more light distortion.
Go for a full canopy and you have heat/dirt/inverted exit causing issues, try and mitigate the risks and you're running an open wheeled LMP1 car with wipers, ventilation systems and doors. Without doors an inverted canopy is a trap, nose into a barrier upside down a slide forward or folding canopy cannot be opened.
I'm not an engineer, but I don't think we need to reinvent the wheel here. Cockpits have sides that rise up, currently made of carbon fiber.
I wonder if its possible to make these from something clear like lexan, enabling them to come further forwards, enough to prevent a wheel or similar large item from impacting the helmet. Helmet designs themselves have already been beefed up following the incident Massa had and this 2 prong approach for me seems to cover most bases
Any structure forward of the driver needs to have minimal effect on visibility. Unless completely enclosed there will always be a risk of something hitting the driver on the head. An aero screen that allows the driver to exit through an open top could be high enough to prevent large items like wheels but may not have prevent something small like a spring It will still leave the questions of cleaning it . Having hit a bumble bee at 80ish mph even something so small can really be felt. In order to protect from the weigh of a flying wheel or Columbian they need to be thick, thicker material means more light distortion.
Go for a full canopy and you have heat/dirt/inverted exit causing issues, try and mitigate the risks and you're running an open wheeled LMP1 car with wipers, ventilation systems and doors. Without doors an inverted canopy is a trap, nose into a barrier upside down a slide forward or folding canopy cannot be opened.
I'm not an engineer, but I don't think we need to reinvent the wheel here. Cockpits have sides that rise up, currently made of carbon fiber.
I wonder if its possible to make these from something clear like lexan, enabling them to come further forwards, enough to prevent a wheel or similar large item from impacting the helmet. Helmet designs themselves have already been beefed up following the incident Massa had and this 2 prong approach for me seems to cover most bases
24lemons said:
How about Henry Surtees, Felipe Massa, Dan Wheldon or Jules Bianchi. Not to mention the numerous near misses we've had in that time.
All tragic and cruel, however in my view you'd need to lose a WDC to see any significant and fast shift in opinion. What's changed since any of them were taken from the sport? and that's in a five/four year time span?Nothing. Virtual safety car aside, which was relatively easy to enforce I don't see any 2016 cars being significantly different from now.
I'm not sure anything could have saved Jules, that's an argument with an object your very unlikely to win.
Accepting something being done as inevitable, if they had a canopy, as a tradeoff could then reduce the bodywork around the driver, particularly the high sides?
Or does it have to be a full canopy- most high-energy objects will be approaching the front of the car- how about a windscreen/visor?
Or does it have to be a full canopy- most high-energy objects will be approaching the front of the car- how about a windscreen/visor?
garycat said:
Can you imagine the cockpit temperatures in an enclosed cockpit at somewhere like Malaysia? It would be absolutely unbearable to be in such a small enclosed space surrounded by hot batteries, engine, radiators etc.
Any ventilation would compromise the aerodynamics so the designers would minimise it.
You could have a giant extraction fan above the driver, and air intakes underneath the car...Any ventilation would compromise the aerodynamics so the designers would minimise it.
Stop chunks of metal being ejected from the cars in the first place. Contain / teather everything better. Wouldn't have saved Bianchi or De Villota, but might've saved Massa, Surtees, Wilson as well as the countless and nameless trackside marshals and pitlane personel who everyone seems to be forgetting about and whom would be no safer (arguably less so) were canopies introduced.
Nobody has mentionned probably the most significant flaw with enclosed canopies- smoke, vapour and hazardous liquid containment, and access / egress in the event of fire or explosion.
Nobody has mentionned probably the most significant flaw with enclosed canopies- smoke, vapour and hazardous liquid containment, and access / egress in the event of fire or explosion.
Doink said:
If it were to be a fully enclosed canopy then it could be attached on runners and slide forward, even if upside down I would imagine it could still slide forward maybe enough to fully remove it? Or have it open topped like the caparo and still make it removable?
Car upside down and buried in the tyres, or perhaps with another car on top, a la Austria this year? What about if the impact damages the slider mechanism (clogged with gravel, debris or whatever?). Even if you could ensure quick release, how quick is "quick enough"? James Hinchcliffe very nearly bled out in his Indy 500 crash, despite medical teams getting there very quickly. If his car had a canopy, even the slight delay in removing it could have turned a positive outcome into a negative one, and that's with the car right side up and with no obstructions.Doink said:
Secondly the argument about screenwash type cleaners getting onto the track is also a none starter for me after all we race in the rain so a bit of glass cleaner....... WTF!!!
Possibly true in F1, but not for the Indycar ovals, which is (sadly) the reason this conversation is in the news again. Fluid from screenwash getting on the track might not be an issue on a regular circuit, but it's an absolute non-starter on an oval. Likewsie the question of visibility. Less of an issue in F1/WEC, but when you have pack racing at 200mph+, you can't have drivers unable to see what's going on around them.Really not sure what the solution is to be honest. Whatever it is will have compromises, at which point you have to consider what new risks it introduces and if the cost/benefit is acceptable. Take a partial screen, perhaps like that on the Caparo. May well deflect debris from certain angles, but could potentially capture and divert other debris that would otherwise pass by, introducing scenarios where things ricochet around the cockpit.
Edited by hornet on Wednesday 26th August 13:58
Yes it really seems to have reached the "something must be done" stage doesn't it. Just a few observations based on an interest in motor sport safety extending back over 40 years and, sadly, some experience of dealing with head injuries both at the acute stage and also the sequelae.
The human skull is a brilliant bit of kit, beneath it the brain is delicate and vulnerable. If the skull is penetrated (as in Senna's accident) the outlook is usually poor. However, if there is blunt non-penetrating injury the outcome can still be devastating - just take a look at the photo of poor Mark Donohue in this week's Autosport. He's sat out of the car, lucid, with no obvious external head injury - but within 48 hours he would be dead of an intracranial bleed. So it is often the sheer forces involved that cause the damage - so I'm afraid that adding an inch or so of padding to a helmet or beefing up the HANS device would make no difference whatsoever.
To make these accidents survivable the only answer is to prevent flying debris (or flying car - think Grosjean at Spa)from impacting with the driver's head. After Tom Pryce's dreadful accident at Kyalami in 1977 much effort was put into evolving roll bars into roll cages - several F1 and F5000 cars began to feature forward facing roll hoops or even (in one case) a sprint car-style full cage. OK, but not very pretty and these wouldn't stop smaller flying items (eg the coil spring that hit Massa)from getting through.
Canopies have been suggested but the usual argument against these is visibility and possible driver entrapment. One possible solution would be a semi-canopy ( I'm at work so can't post images ), just Google "Protos Formula 2 car" and you'll get the idea. Even though the designers of the Protos back in the 60's were chasing aero efficiency and not safety - worth a thought..??
The human skull is a brilliant bit of kit, beneath it the brain is delicate and vulnerable. If the skull is penetrated (as in Senna's accident) the outlook is usually poor. However, if there is blunt non-penetrating injury the outcome can still be devastating - just take a look at the photo of poor Mark Donohue in this week's Autosport. He's sat out of the car, lucid, with no obvious external head injury - but within 48 hours he would be dead of an intracranial bleed. So it is often the sheer forces involved that cause the damage - so I'm afraid that adding an inch or so of padding to a helmet or beefing up the HANS device would make no difference whatsoever.
To make these accidents survivable the only answer is to prevent flying debris (or flying car - think Grosjean at Spa)from impacting with the driver's head. After Tom Pryce's dreadful accident at Kyalami in 1977 much effort was put into evolving roll bars into roll cages - several F1 and F5000 cars began to feature forward facing roll hoops or even (in one case) a sprint car-style full cage. OK, but not very pretty and these wouldn't stop smaller flying items (eg the coil spring that hit Massa)from getting through.
Canopies have been suggested but the usual argument against these is visibility and possible driver entrapment. One possible solution would be a semi-canopy ( I'm at work so can't post images ), just Google "Protos Formula 2 car" and you'll get the idea. Even though the designers of the Protos back in the 60's were chasing aero efficiency and not safety - worth a thought..??
Edited by moffspeed on Wednesday 26th August 13:52
OK a wrap around screen like the caparo in the OP, the short FIA video shows this had shattered because and I'm no expert that it was allowed to flex around the rim, picture the same but now with a steel tube or carbon fibre frame around the top edge to remove the flex, bit of pipe lagging and bobs your uncle, now where's Charlie's number?
PW said:
Closed cockpits were looked at after Massa, Surtees' and Bianchi's accidents; helmets and visors were revised after Massa's accident, wheel tethers were introduced after accidents involving marshals and then strengthened after Surtees' death.
They also introduced better barriers, strengthened cockpit side protection - that's all I can think of off the top of my head, and I really don't pay all that much attention to it, so I doubt those are the only changes.
It's fairly easy to argue that none of the changes have made a difference in light of last weekends, and Jule's accident.They also introduced better barriers, strengthened cockpit side protection - that's all I can think of off the top of my head, and I really don't pay all that much attention to it, so I doubt those are the only changes.
I agree that there is no easy answer, I certainly wouldn't expect to see any changes to cars until 2017. I did read about a suggestion that major car parts, wing, nosecone, sidepods etc have some form of 'tether' constructed into them to prevent them bouncing down the road.
Doink said:
OK a wrap around screen like the caparo in the OP, the short FIA video shows this had shattered because and I'm no expert that it was allowed to flex around the rim, picture the same but now with a steel tube or carbon fibre frame around the top edge to remove the flex, bit of pipe lagging and bobs your uncle, now where's Charlie's number?
I guess a screen like the very front part of a fighter cockpit but open behind would do the job - anything coming head on would be deflected clear, the back edge would act as a roll hoop to preserve the driver's space in the event of a car coming over the top, and since the back edge would be level with the front of the cockpit it wouldn't impede access. It's likely that the extra weight would be more than compensated by the aerodynamic advantages of being able to work the air around the cockpit.
davepoth said:
Doink said:
OK a wrap around screen like the caparo in the OP, the short FIA video shows this had shattered because and I'm no expert that it was allowed to flex around the rim, picture the same but now with a steel tube or carbon fibre frame around the top edge to remove the flex, bit of pipe lagging and bobs your uncle, now where's Charlie's number?
I guess a screen like the very front part of a fighter cockpit but open behind would do the job - anything coming head on would be deflected clear, the back edge would act as a roll hoop to preserve the driver's space in the event of a car coming over the top, and since the back edge would be level with the front of the cockpit it wouldn't impede access. 
I would have thought something along these lines would seem to be the best mix of protection vs ease of access. I googled F1 car canopy.
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