Head injuries, what more can be done?
Discussion
SeeFive said:
Given the amount of crap that collects on a visor during a GP, which of course tear offs deal with, how would the canopy be kept clean and vision clear in the event, for example of a car losing viscous fluid in front of you?
We could be creating a whole new problem by putting on canopies that cannot be efficiently cleaned while on the move. The question is, following an accident killing a blinded driver, would canopies be outlawed?
Most Le Mans cars have closed canopies and wipers.We could be creating a whole new problem by putting on canopies that cannot be efficiently cleaned while on the move. The question is, following an accident killing a blinded driver, would canopies be outlawed?
davepoth said:
It's likely that the extra weight would be more than compensated by the aerodynamic advantages of being able to work the air around the cockpit.
Bear in mind that fast jet canopies are hugely heavy due to their impact resistance, so you'd have to have some great aero advantages to offset that ammount of weight! 
And so we have Mercedes's solution.....
http://paultan.org/2015/08/27/video-mercedes-halo-...
Hmmmmm not too sure on this!
http://paultan.org/2015/08/27/video-mercedes-halo-...
Hmmmmm not too sure on this!
Jek Porkins said:
Very sad times at the moment.
I personally think these concepts look mega, but yes, there are issues if the car was the become inverted.
Thinking out loud, the face on the top of range of I-watches is Saphire glass, almost if not totally scratch proof, add this to bullit proof glass, which must be just about unbreakable and make all F1 cars have the cockpits (ie the new concepts above) made of it, would make it safer me thinks.I personally think these concepts look mega, but yes, there are issues if the car was the become inverted.
Zod said:
Most Le Mans cars have closed canopies and wipers.
Again, the Le Mans comparison, having a screen of a width and curvature very unlike the examples shown in this thread. I am sure it is not insurmountable, but it will be an interesting design that solves the problem of efficiently cleaning a cockpit cover that shape under the aerodynamic and G stresses in a GP car. Let's face it, they can't even deploy functional mirrors!Le Mans is a different model. I have not seen tenth of a second on a pit stop being the decider between final places too often. Have you watched them clean a Le Mans windscreen, or remove a tear off? So when the strategy is set and a driver cannot see too well, who is going to decide to pit to clean the screen and screw the race?
This is just an extreme and potentially petty example of the wider issues faced if closed canopies are introduced. There are quite a few more serious others that some have mentioned before and since my post that really need to be resolved, prior to a knee jerk introduction on the back of a rare but truly horrible outcome for the other drivers mentioned in this thread.
Whilst mitigating one risk, it is clear that others will be introduced which need to be fully understood and resolved before implementation IMHO.
How dirty do you expect the canopies to get after a 2 hour race, in some cases LM cars are out for 3 hours at a time and possibly at night time, I'm sure an F1 driver could manage 2 hours on a Sunday afternoon. OK how about 3 mandatory 20 sec pitstops then - plenty of time to wipe the screen then?
Charlie Whiting has said in one of the interviews that a break in tradition is likely in the quest to find this head protection, make of it what you will!
Charlie Whiting has said in one of the interviews that a break in tradition is likely in the quest to find this head protection, make of it what you will!
Vipers said:
Thinking out loud, the face on the top of range of I-watches is Saphire glass, almost if not totally scratch proof, add this to bullit proof glass, which must be just about unbreakable and make all F1 cars have the cockpits (ie the new concepts above) made of it, would make it safer me thinks.
Sapphire is really brittle and cracks if you shock it(high end watches have used it for decades now), though I'm sure gorilla glass or sucklike is a good compromise.I like the Halo idea, though looking at it I don't see why they can't put a roof on the top of then Halo too. Looks terrible and wouldn't have saved Massa/senna from face full of spring or bianchi Insuspect, but how freak an accident can you expect to deal with?
andburg said:
Its hard to imagine a solution that will solve this and retain the look of current F1.
I'm not an engineer, but I don't think we need to reinvent the wheel here. Cockpits have sides that rise up, currently made of carbon fiber.
Couldn't you just build a roll hoop into that, over the top of the drivers head? They have to lift it off to get out anyway. If it protruded forward it would be terrible for drag, but if it was standardised then everyone would just have to deal with it.I'm not an engineer, but I don't think we need to reinvent the wheel here. Cockpits have sides that rise up, currently made of carbon fiber.
Doink said:
How dirty do you expect the canopies to get after a 2 hour race, in some cases LM cars are out for 3 hours at a time and possibly at night time, I'm sure an F1 driver could manage 2 hours on a Sunday afternoon. OK how about 3 mandatory 20 sec pitstops then - plenty of time to wipe the screen then?
Charlie Whiting has said in one of the interviews that a break in tradition is likely in the quest to find this head protection, make of it what you will!
Mandatory 20 second pit stops? Are you serious? When exactly? Just after the engine in front let go one lap after your last mandatory oit stop? How do you plan that time loss into your mandatories? Just take a look back a few seasons at the front wings of f1 cars' slot gaps at pit stops. Do you know how many tear offs a driver uses on his visor in a tiny 200 mile GP race? Thought not. These cars exude fluids all the time in normal running as well as other living and dead crap being thrown at your visor.Charlie Whiting has said in one of the interviews that a break in tradition is likely in the quest to find this head protection, make of it what you will!
When did circumstance such as getting hit in the head with debris heavy enough to kill you become more frequent than a face full of fluids from another car hitting trouble or regular build up of debris obscuring vision? Just look at the flies on an in car shot and the need for a scrolling film in front of the camera if you have never spent some considerable time in a single seater and experienced it first hand.
Visor contamination has happens a lot more often than drivers getting hit in the head by heavy objects. Will YOU call the pit stop when you can't see and are 5 seconds ahead of the guy in second place with 3 laps to go, or race on with the risk to you and others?
We are dealing with an extremely rare issue necessating the call for closed cockpits. Motor racing has many and very varied risks of differing probabilities of happening. All I would say is think it through properly, and not just from the perspective that I am suggesting. There are more serious concerns around closed cockpits as have been stated by others. And from my seemingly petty perspective for an armchair driver to understand, I have not seen any credible form of windscreen clearance in the images so far, which in my experience is a factor worth considering.
Make of that what you will... as you say.
I find it strange no one says WEC cars are death traps and if the cars go inverted then the driver will be trapped etc. honestly, inverted cars are actually a rarity and even then most cars are at least turn onto their sides to allow the driver to get out. The FIA Should just look into the issue, find a solution, tell the teams it's going to happen and no one will be allowed to try and vote against it. Write it into the regulations.
Even road cars with doors that open up the way don't have issues although I believe the Mercedes AMG GT and perhaps SLS have exploding bolts which allow the doors to be removed if the car ends up upside down.
Yes air-con may be required but again, write it into the regulations, even supply a fixed cost unit and specify how it must be used if necessary!
Even road cars with doors that open up the way don't have issues although I believe the Mercedes AMG GT and perhaps SLS have exploding bolts which allow the doors to be removed if the car ends up upside down.
Yes air-con may be required but again, write it into the regulations, even supply a fixed cost unit and specify how it must be used if necessary!
MissChief said:
I find it strange no one says WEC cars are death traps and if the cars go inverted then the driver will be trapped etc. honestly, inverted cars are actually a rarity and even then most cars are at least turn onto their sides to allow the driver to get out.
Very true. In most cases marshals are on site very quickly to help and often an inverted car has to be moved to aid escape as you say. Incidentally the video demonstrating the Mercedes GP concept 'halo' design mentions that the device can be removed to aid extraction. If that's the case then surely a canopy or screen can be designed in such a way that it can also come off. A quick release mechanism that can be operated from inside or outside of the cockpit cant be beyond the reach of F1 engineers?
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PW said:
No they aren't. They might go that long without changing tyres, but they're still stopping every 50mins or so for fuel, which is long enough to allow the screen to be cleaned at each stop. And they have wipers.
Also, cockpits/canopies won't be the end of the discussion - it would still only be another layer of protection. The laws of physics can only do so much in the face of hundreds of kgs travelling at hundreds of kph meeting an unyeilding and unmovable object.
Also, no one seems to be explaining how this solution is going to be reliably and affordably applied across all open cockpit formulae, or will it remain an acceptable risk for some series/drivers?
Well we've been adding layers of protection a bit at a time since Senna died and I dont hear many people complaining about the lives that have been saved as a result. I think its only right that weaknesses in the car's safety are addressed where possible and we are at a stage now where too many people have been hurt and lost due to their head's being so vulnerable in a crash. Also, cockpits/canopies won't be the end of the discussion - it would still only be another layer of protection. The laws of physics can only do so much in the face of hundreds of kgs travelling at hundreds of kph meeting an unyeilding and unmovable object.
Also, no one seems to be explaining how this solution is going to be reliably and affordably applied across all open cockpit formulae, or will it remain an acceptable risk for some series/drivers?
Yes there are issues associated with canopies/windscreens which need to be overcome but in the grand scheme of things if it prevents this sort of thing happening again then I'm all for it.
Imagine if Duval's crash had happened in the old Audi R15. It doesnt bear thinking about.
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