Redbull not to use Renault engines in 2016

[Scuffers]

That makes no sens?
They can test as much as they like now, just not in an f1 car.

Lack of testing is not the problem

[Never you mind]

I seem to recall it was Renault that wanted these new type of engines or is my memory failing me?

[Scuffers]

Never you mind said:

I seem to recall it was Renault that wanted these new type of engines or is my memory failing me?

no, you are quite right.

they said if the new engines did not get passed, they would pull out.

As usual, more catastrophic stupidity from the management of an F1 company.

[Emeye]

You can't make this crap up can you?

[Blayney]

glazbagun said:

EskimoArapaho said:

Won't Haas be a bit miffed if Red Bull gets a Ferrari engine and starts being competitive again?

I'd wet myself if Ferrari said no as well. Are Mechachrome still going? maybe they could be persuaded to reheat last years Renault V6.

Mechachrome are still going... making Renault f1 engines...

[glazbagun]

Blayney said:

glazbagun said:

EskimoArapaho said:

Won't Haas be a bit miffed if Red Bull gets a Ferrari engine and starts being competitive again?

I'd wet myself if Ferrari said no as well. Are Mechachrome still going? maybe they could be persuaded to reheat last years Renault V6.

Mechachrome are still going... making Renault f1 engines...

I always wondered why Williams fell off a cliff when Renualt left in the 90's. Was everyone else developing better engines all of a sudden or did Williams lose some top staff?

[Scuffers]

glazbagun said:

I always wondered why Williams fell off a cliff when Renualt left in the 90's. Was everyone else developing better engines all of a sudden or did Williams lose some top staff?

they lost Adrian Newey to McLaren.

Newey and the team's relationship got strained after Senna's death, leading to Newey being put on "gardening leave" in 1995 prior to joining McLaren.

[HustleRussell]

IMO if Renault doesn't take on Lotus, Red Bull will still be Renault powered next year.

Red Bull would be stupid not to look around but they'll want a long term solution and being the Renault works team is that.

However, Renault takeover of Lotus does sound likely.

In any case I wouldn't consider Red Bull running a different engine next year to be a forgone conclusion, Having an alternative engine on the table will strengthen Red Bull's bargaining position with Renault and unless Renault have a works team of their own they'll want to keep their engines in Red Bulls until they do.

The limited testing and tokens system is restricting manufacturer's in-season technical changes quite significantly- Renault, and any of the other engine manufacturers, could have a silver bullet technical solution up their sleeve for implementation during the off-season.

[Scuffers]

HustleRussell said:

The limited testing and tokens system is restricting manufacturer's in-season technical changes quite significantly- Renault, and any of the other engine manufacturers, could have a silver bullet technical solution up their sleeve for implementation during the off-season.

this^^^

nothing stopping *any* of them having a completely new engine next season, tokens are for in-season changes.

much like nothing stopping them test 24/7/52, just not even in an F1 car.

[rdjohn]

For 2016, quite a lot is frozen especially arround the cylinder block and cams.

Only 38% of weighted items can be changed next year. Everything will have to be holomogated by the end of Barcelona testing, unlike this year where it has been allowed to drag on and on (and in Renault's case, on and on)

Appendix 4 of Technical Regs is the place to look. These restrictions are why Audi, or whoever, would be daft to try and start catching up now. I think even Honda were probably just too late.

Edited by rdjohn on Friday 11th September 17:49

[KarlMac]

Scuffers said:

this^^^

nothing stopping *any* of them having a completely new engine next season, tokens are for in-season changes.

much like nothing stopping them test 24/7/52, just not even in an F1 car.

The comments coming out of Mclaren/Honda pretty much say this. They know where the faults lie, but have hands tied in terms of correcting it.

Or it could be bluster to cover up the fact they built a lemon

[HustleRussell]

rdjohn are you saying that new engine builders are only permitted to turn up with 38% of an engine?

[theAmerican]

Scuffers said:

HustleRussell said:

The limited testing and tokens system is restricting manufacturer's in-season technical changes quite significantly- Renault, and any of the other engine manufacturers, could have a silver bullet technical solution up their sleeve for implementation during the off-season.

this^^^

nothing stopping *any* of them having a completely new engine next season, tokens are for in-season changes.

much like nothing stopping them test 24/7/52, just not even in an F1 car.

Nope, this is not correct buddy; I suggest you read up on the rules. Tokens are applicable meaning the fundamental architecture of your PU cannot be changed within a token system.

The available tokens mandated by the FIA also diminish. What you are able to change next year will be less than this year for instance.

[rdjohn]

HustleRussell said:

rdjohn are you saying that new engine builders are only permitted to turn up with 38% of an engine?

No, only that 38% can be changed in 2016. McLaren are implying 100% could be changed.

A lot of the engine would need to be perfect out-of-the-box and some would be fixed from day 1. The situation is much worse in 2017, the earliest a new engine builder could turn up. It is also perfect for Mercedes, by getting it near perfect from the start, they can spend tokens on reliability and efficiency issues, rather than fundamentals.

[llewop]

If the rumours/suggestions end up close to current speculation, it's going to be something like this next year:

Mercedes - Mercedes
Williams - Mercedes
Force India - Mercedes

Lotus - Mercedes/Renault
Manor - Mercedes/Ferrari

Ferrari - Ferrari
Sauber - Ferrari
Hass - Ferrari
Red Bull - Ferrari (or ?)

McLaren - Honda

Toro Rosso - ?

So although it seems Ferrari may offer a life line to Red Bull - Toro Rosso could be left out in the cold, unless Ferrari will provide their engines too? Which means, from an engine point of view it could be Mercedes vs Ferrari spread across several teams (including a works team each) with Honda and perhaps Renault off to one side.

Before I ran through the teams it crossed my mind it may almost be heading back towards the 70s etc where the default engine for many years was the Ford DFV with others (including Ferrari) being exceptions rather than the rule - but it looks like the numbers are likely to be more even than it was in those days. If everyone has the same engine, then it doesn't become the defining factor - so in some respects works teams are a bad thing - as Mercedes has shown, better integration clearly pays off. Maybe to convince Mercedes to flog off the Brackley team and be engine supplier to 2/3 or more of the grid - doesn't matter then who wins for them!

[HustleRussell]

rdjohn said:

HustleRussell said:

rdjohn are you saying that new engine builders are only permitted to turn up with 38% of an engine?

No, only that 38% can be changed in 2016. McLaren are implying 100% could be changed.

A lot of the engine would need to be perfect out-of-the-box and some would be fixed from day 1

38% of what? Surely an engine manufacturer who has not yet homologated an engine can make a 100% new one?

[Scuffers]

rdjohn said:

For 2016, quite a lot is frozen especially arround the cylinder block and cams.

Only 38% of weighted items can be changed next year. Everything will have to be holomogated by the end of Barcelona testing, unlike this year where it has been allowed to drag on and on (and in Renault's case, on and on)

Appendix 4 of Technical Regs is the place to look. These restrictions are why Audi, or whoever, would be daft to try and start catching up now. I think even Honda were probably just too late.

depends which way round you read the regs, for 2016 only 23% of the PU is frozen...

looking at it from the perspective of a new entrant, the trick would be not to homologate your PU until you're properly ready, up until that point, you can do whatever the hell you want.

this is the bit I just don't get with Honda, they had a years worth of watching the others and the holes they went down, and still came up with a total dog.

Stuff like MGU-K/MGU-H should have been tested to death before they got anywhere near a car let alone homologated, yet the reports are they can't use either to anything like the limits of the regs.

With the kind of money they are burning though, I would have though last year they would have had PU's running 24/7 testing everything to death before the end of last year, I really do not understand the excuses.

[RYH64E]

Scuffers said:

this is the bit I just don't get with Honda, they had a years worth of watching the others and the holes they went down, and still came up with a total dog.

It makes even less sense taking into account McLaren running Mercedes engines last year. Surely Honda would have had a good understanding of the strengths and weaknesses of last year's engines and used that knowledge when designing their own unit?

[Emeye]

I think we can conclude from this thread that the current engine regs are ste.

I'd allow unlimited engine development within technical restrictions.

And unlimited testing, but the catch being that all teams have to test at the same time - if the smaller teams cannot afford to test, then the large manufacturers have to pick up the venue bill - how do they police this? Set the standard testing days which they all have to pay for, then any extra the richer teams/engine manufacturers decide they want they have to extra testing they have to let the others turn up - the FIA can so the sums.

[rdjohn]

I

RYH64E said:

Scuffers said:

this is the bit I just don't get with Honda, they had a years worth of watching the others and the holes they went down, and still came up with a total dog.

It makes even less sense taking into account McLaren running Mercedes engines last year. Surely Honda would have had a good understanding of the strengths and weaknesses of last year's engines and used that knowledge when designing their own unit?

It is the yawning gap between ego and reality. It seems to be the one certainty in history that will always repeat itself.

Edited by rdjohn on Sunday 13th September 08:36