Redbull not to use Renault engines in 2016

[Inertiatic]

I'm not sure I'd want to supply Red Bull. Its all them if they win and all you if they lose.

I suppose financially its always better to have another customer...but they must be a pain in the are to work with

[DJRC]

I think Merc can see themselves supplying RB next year but I know damn well they will find themselves in a similar deal to Williams! The factory cars will have a slightly better engine/integration/packaging advantage.

Merc's board like tapping into the more youthful demographic of RB, Newey wants a crack at this Aston all electric hyper car that keeps getting muted so showdown the pieces are being put together for a deal.

I think Horner will find dealing with Merc an awful lot different to Renault though! Can you imagine shouting your mouth off in public with Lauda around?

[Scuffers]

DJRC said:

The factory cars will have a slightly better engine/integration/packaging advantage.

what have you got to back up this claim?

people keep going on about Merc supplying inferior engines to their customers, this is 100% bullst.

[HTP99]

Cyder said:

To throw an even more interesting one into the discussion, Renault, Daimler and Nissan(Infiniti) are in alliance together sharing engines and platforms already, so it wouldn't be beyond the realms of possibility for Merc to supply the engines and Infiniti to keep sponsoring the team.

Some current Infiniti road cars use the Merc Diesel engine I believe.

Mercedes use Renault engines; the 1.5 dCi, the Smart is a Twingo, Mercedes Citan van is a Kangoo and the new Vito is based on the Trafic.

[andy-xr]

The ever dubious reporting of f1today.net (who also said Hamilton might go back to McLaren) is reporting no Merc engines for RBR

[HTP99]

I would imagine that if the above is correct then RB will continue with Renault for next year.

[m444ttb]

Ferrari seem the most open based on what they say in public. But the situation isn't dissimilar to Mercedes. Either would end up helping a key rival sort out their weak spot. RedBull have pissed Mercedes off a number of times in the past though so my guess would be Ferrari power.

Where I think it gets more complicated is if Renault only supply their works team following a buyout (back!) of Lotus. Worse still if they just leave as that doesn't free up a Mercedes unit. Ferrari are already supplying one extra unit for Haas so do they have the capacity to supply an additional two for RBR and STR? That could be a net increase of only two if Manor were to (firstly survive) switch to Honda.

[VolvoT5]

I think Ferrari would be nuts to supply RBR with an up to date engine - I seriously suspect Redbull would beat Ferrari with their own engine! For Mercedes it is a little less risky given they seem to have a good car and obviously Hamilton in their pocket as well.

Still I think Redbull are in the st at the moment and if nobody helps them out so they are competitive again they could definitely flounce out of F1 very shortly.

Edited by VolvoT5 on Monday 7th September 11:31

[Leithen]

That dust trail disappearing from Monza over the hills back home to Austria? It's Dietrich - he's not interested any more.

[BigBen]

Scuffers said:

DJRC said:

The factory cars will have a slightly better engine/integration/packaging advantage.

what have you got to back up this claim?

people keep going on about Merc supplying inferior engines to their customers, this is 100% bullst.

Exactly. They don't have a choice, I even think the engine supply route is Mercedes HPE > FIA > teams so they don't even get to decide which engines go to which team (clearly this is different later in the season when allocations etc come into play)

[ukaskew]

Red Bull with a Mercedes engine would be a lose-lose for the Merc factory team. The only way it's going to happen is if Bernie really puts his foot down, which I understand he is trying to do.

Mercedes Wins = RB moan about the engine
Red Bull Wins = No good for the Merc F1 team


Red Bull are digging their own grave with their attitude towards Renault (who, not forgetting, have a significant relationship with Mercedes far bigger than the sums flying around in F1)

[bakerstreet]

The autosport article confirms nothing.

There was talk of RB getting Merc engines, but with Aston Martin branding to tie in with the Aston Martin Merc engine partnership.

[DJRC]

Scuffers said:

DJRC said:

The factory cars will have a slightly better engine/integration/packaging advantage.

what have you got to back up this claim?

people keep going on about Merc supplying inferior engines to their customers, this is 100% bullst.

Back up which claim? Others may have mentioned inferior engines - I didn't. I phrased my point very deliberately as Toto, Lauda, C. Williams and Smedley are all on record as acknowledging Merc have a power train packaging advantage and its built in from the start of the powertrain design process. That's the point of being a Works team and not a customer.

Read what is written, not what you want to waffle about from your high horse.

[andy-xr]

I think the Red Bull guy wants out and is using Renault as his bh. The problem is that Renault bought another team so can flip him the finger before he's ready to flounce. I think Renault have made a very tactical move to play Dieter Mateschitz's hand for him

That might be a bit made up and overdramatised for the sake of it, but I reckon it's in there somewhere

[theAmerican]

I think the factory team plus 3 customer teams thing makes sense. On that basis,

RBR get Ferrari engines and Ferrari supply Haas & Sauber
STR get Merc engines and Merc supply FI & Williams
Lotus & Manor to Renault

[andy-xr]

I also think that Renault could probably do a better job on their own vs being paired with Red Bull, who have had their limitations. I'd guesstimate that if Red Bull are losing people like Vettel then being outperformed by the junior team, in Renault's eyes it's time for a change and perhaps time to go it alone with a team they have 100% involvement in rather than what seems to be a 70/30 arrangement on decision making right now. Sentiment sure feels that way regardless of what Horner might sound like. I'd imagine being involved with RBR is probably similar to getting Debra Meaden as a Dragon investor. It does the job, but fk me it's tiring to deal with every day

[Cyder]

HTP99 said:

Cyder said:

To throw an even more interesting one into the discussion, Renault, Daimler and Nissan(Infiniti) are in alliance together sharing engines and platforms already, so it wouldn't be beyond the realms of possibility for Merc to supply the engines and Infiniti to keep sponsoring the team.

Some current Infiniti road cars use the Merc Diesel engine I believe.

Mercedes use Renault engines; the 1.5 dCi, the Smart is a Twingo, Mercedes Citan van is a Kangoo and the new Vito is based on the Trafic.

Yep, and Infiniti use the Merc 2.2 diesel in the Q50 and others.
I think the new Q30 is on a Merc platform too.

[ajprice]

So Mercedes and Renault get together, put Mercedes badges on the Renault engines and send them to Horner next year with a note saying "This is all you're getting" .

[Scuffers]

DJRC said:

Scuffers said:

DJRC said:

The factory cars will have a slightly better engine/integration/packaging advantage.

what have you got to back up this claim?

people keep going on about Merc supplying inferior engines to their customers, this is 100% bullst.

Back up which claim? Others may have mentioned inferior engines - I didn't. I phrased my point very deliberately as Toto, Lauda, C. Williams and Smedley are all on record as acknowledging Merc have a power train packaging advantage and its built in from the start of the powertrain design process. That's the point of being a Works team and not a customer.

Read what is written, not what you want to waffle about from your high horse.

I can read thanks!

you said:

DJRC said:

The factory cars will have a slightly better engine/integration/packaging advantage.

well, the engines are the same, the packaging (as in how they are laid out) are the same, the only bit that varies is the integration, and that's 100% down to the team.

Now, last year when the PU's were new, you could just about argue that the works team had more insight into the packaging, this year that's simply not the case.

Now, you were saying?

[velocgee]

DJRC said:

Back up which claim? Others may have mentioned inferior engines - I didn't. I phrased my point very deliberately as Toto, Lauda, C. Williams and Smedley are all on record as acknowledging Merc have a power train packaging advantage and its built in from the start of the powertrain design process. That's the point of being a Works team and not a customer.

Spot on.

Mercedes will know the 'secrets' of how best to package (aero, cooling, etc) their unit and they ain't telling, nor do they have to (i don't believe...). Ron had cited this as the main reason for partnering with Honda.