Redbull not to use Renault engines in 2016

[Scuffers]

velocgee said:

Spot on.

Mercedes will know the 'secrets' of how best to package (aero, cooling, etc) their unit and they ain't telling, nor do they have to (i don't believe...). Ron had cited this as the main reason for partnering with Honda.

total fiction once again.

Last year when the PU's were new, the info HPE put to the teams (including their own) was somewhat finger-in-the-air for stuff like heat rejection, etc etc.

this year they were far more specific and accurate, having had a years worth of running data etc.

FIA have mandated that all the customer teams get the same info/parts/etc as the works teams (unless they choose not to take them).

This idea that HPE treat the works team any different is just cobblers, it's policed to hell and back.

Ron's comment is more to do with being a customer you're never going to get a PU advantage over the works team (or any other customer), not that you're at a disadvantage.

Edited by Scuffers on Monday 7th September 13:36

[FourWheelDrift]

Factory cars do get engine upgrades before the customers. Mercedes are using their 2016 engines from Monza. Williams, Lotus and FI dont have it. Sauber got an engine update at Spa that Ferrari has been using since Canada and Ferrari are another step ahead from Monza with new Shell fuel. Manor another customer arent even using a 2015 engine.

They are not in a big pool and handed out by the FIA.

[velocgee]

Scuffers said:

total fiction once again.

Last year when the PU's were new, the info HPE put to the teams (including their own) was somewhat finger-in-the-air for stuff like heat rejection, etc etc.

this year they were far more specific and accurate, having had a years worth of running data etc.

FIA have mandated that all the customer teams get the same info/parts/etc as the works teams (unless they choose not to take them).

This idea that HPE treat the works team any different is just cobblers, it's policed to hell and back.

Ron's comment is more to do with being a customer you're never going to get a PU advantage over the works team (or any other customer), not that you're at a disadvantage.

said nothing about treated differently. but the works team did have info that the customers didn't have in regards the PU.

How can FIA mandate that an engine supplier tell it's customers how best to package it's engine?

Edited by velocgee on Monday 7th September 14:10

[Scuffers]

FourWheelDrift said:

Factory cars do get engine upgrades before the customers. Mercedes are using their 2016 engines from Monza. Williams, Lotus and FI dont have it.

it's the customer team's choice to take the updates.

The latest Merc update involved a big change in fuel, so for Williams/Lotus/etc to take it would have required them to change quite a lot (and pay for it, eg. ECU work etc.)

they also have to factor in how adding a new PU in their schedule for engine changes would work, ie, they are not going to change out an engine ahead of schedule and risk needing another one (with penalties and costs).

[Muzzer79]

theAmerican said:

I think the factory team plus 3 customer teams thing makes sense. On that basis,

RBR get Ferrari engines and Ferrari supply Haas & Sauber
STR get Merc engines and Merc supply FI & Williams
Lotus & Manor to Renault

You think that Red Bull will give the title-winning, widely-regarded-as-the-best engine to Toro Rosso and put the Ferrari engine with the 'main' team?

[velocgee]

isn't STR getting Ferrari engines?

[Scuffers]

velocgee said:

isn't STR getting Ferrari engines?

they used to, currently on Renault.

[Teppic]

According to Autosport the Mercedes board have ruled out supplying Red Bull with engines.

http://www.autosport.com/news/report.php/id/120704

So, their options would now appear to be:

1. Make grovelling apology to Renault and continue with current contract
2. Beg Ferrari for a supply of engines
3. Take leave of senses and ask Honda for engines
4. Leave F1

[FourWheelDrift]

Teppic said:

According to Autosport the Mercedes board have ruled out supplying Red Bull with engines.

http://www.autosport.com/news/report.php/id/120704

So, their options would now appear to be:

1. Make grovelling apology to Renault and continue with current contract
2. Beg Ferrari for a supply of engines
3. Take leave of senses and ask Honda for engines
4. Leave F1

or

5. Pay for the development and build in an exclusive deal with Cosworth.

http://www.racecar-engineering.com/news/cosworth-r...

[Scuffers]

FourWheelDrift said:

or

5. Pay for the development and build in an exclusive deal with Cosworth.

http://www.racecar-engineering.com/news/coswthat's simply fantasyorth-reveals-2014-f1-power-unit/

That's simply fantasy..

[ajprice]

Or 6.

Insist that nobody has any engines, and the races are down a hill with ramps

http://m.youtube.com/watch?v=npFo98Tvrjw

[Doink]

If RBR are waiting for Renault to make a decision on lotus then I know what I'd do if I were Renault, buy lotus anyway, pay up all their creditors and just sit back and let lotus run itself along with the merc engines meanwhile still seeing out their contract as works engine supplier to RBR and leaving them in limbo

Merc would be silly in supplying engines to a team that doesn't think twice about publicly slagging a 'partner' off, Toto remarked that the Germans don't conduct themselves like that and it appears the merc board has seen it that way too, first sign of a poor result once the honeymoon period had worn off you can imagine RBR whining again.

It was reported last week that merc are looking into a technical tie in with manor, that would be good as they aren't really any competition to merc BUT merc could as a result of not helping out RBR show Bernie that they're at least willing to help out a real needy team in manor, they'd at least get a current engine for free and chassis input in exchange for a race seat for Pascal Wehrlein?

Edited by Doink on Monday 7th September 19:28

[Leithen]

Dust trail disappearing over the hills.

The real question is who does the team get sold to....?

[theAmerican]

Muzzer79 said:

theAmerican said:

I think the factory team plus 3 customer teams thing makes sense. On that basis,

RBR get Ferrari engines and Ferrari supply Haas & Sauber
STR get Merc engines and Merc supply FI & Williams
Lotus & Manor to Renault

You think that Red Bull will give the title-winning, widely-regarded-as-the-best engine to Toro Rosso and put the Ferrari engine with the 'main' team?

Absolutely. You do realise that STR are for sale?

Both teams are not joined at the hip and STR will need to demonstrate independence in order to find a buyer. Meanwhile, Merc get a tie-in of sorts with RedBull and 'access' to their young marketable drivers. Bigger picture buddy

Edited by theAmerican on Monday 7th September 20:46

[rubystone]

I don't buy the line about Mercedes wanting to target the Red a Bull market...they buy skateboards. Merc already badge the F1 team 'AMG' and have Hamilton for that demographic.

So it probably comes down to the good of the sport. And pressure from CVC.

It seems logical to see Aston badged Mercs in the back of the Red Bull next season and Ferrari in the STR. But since when has logic prevailed in F1?

[DanielSan]

RBR Aston is a lot more likely than people think at the moment. Especially given a certain Mr Newey may have visited Aston Martin recently regarding future road car ideas.

[Hungrymc]

DanielSan said:

RBR Aston is a lot more likely than people think at the moment. Especially given a certain Mr Newey may have visited Aston Martin recently regarding future road car ideas.

Are Aston still meant to be looking at using AMG engines in road cars?

I simply can not see Merc being prepared to work with Horner and RedBull. They've made it so clear that they will throw anyone under the bus that you'd be mad to go into partnership with them.

I think RBR will leave F1, not sure if there is an appetite (and finances) at Aston to take it over?

[HTP99]

According to Autosport; RBR have requested an early termination of the Renault engine contract and Mercedes have rejected a proposal to supply engines to RBR next year, where does that leave RBR then; Ferrari?

[FourWheelDrift]

HTP99 said:

According to Autosport; RBR have requested an early termination of the Renault engine contract and Mercedes have rejected a proposal to supply engines to RBR next year, where does that leave RBR then; Ferrari?

[theAmerican]

rubystone said:

I don't buy the line about Mercedes wanting to target the Red a Bull market...they buy skateboards. Merc already badge the F1 team 'AMG' and have Hamilton for that demographic.

So it probably comes down to the good of the sport. And pressure from CVC.

It seems logical to see Aston badged Mercs in the back of the Red Bull next season and Ferrari in the STR. But since when has logic prevailed in F1?

That's not how it works. They never settle with one branding star, depending on the sport there can be two/three dozen stars endorsed all of whom are pretty similar when you get down to it. It's fair to say Merc - the road car division are looking to shed their senior image in favour of a younger demographic and Verstappen particularly would be quite interesting (I'd say better than a Rosberg for instance). RBR I don't think will be getting Merc PUs however way they're branded, but STR remains a possibility.