Redbull not to use Renault engines in 2016
Discussion
Derek Smith said:
There is a simple alternative, and that is slightly lower spec engines supplied.
Engines from, say, six months into the previous season, changed half way through.
Or stock engines, but with reduced variables/settings that can be changed by the teams - as Merc offered? Same HP, but less the team can tweak? Engines from, say, six months into the previous season, changed half way through.
Or as you say n-x months for development. Or just encode an x HP reduction (where x is in the bounds of a good driver/chassis combination equalising but not surpassing) for a customer engine.
Vaud said:
They are remarkable, incredible pieces of engineering that have been incredibly badly marketed and pitched by the FIA with a few too many restrictions.
I can appreciate they are examples of incredible engineering............. the problem is I don't think they have added anything to the racing at all, in fact it is almost the opposite as far as I can see. Plus I'm not convinced F1 really needs to be a showcase for new technology that will 'filter down' to road cars. VolvoT5 said:
Vaud said:
They are remarkable, incredible pieces of engineering that have been incredibly badly marketed and pitched by the FIA with a few too many restrictions.
I can appreciate they are examples of incredible engineering............. the problem is I don't think they have added anything to the racing at all, in fact it is almost the opposite as far as I can see. Plus I'm not convinced F1 really needs to be a showcase for new technology that will 'filter down' to road cars. in the past, innovation was born out of a perceived competitive advantage to develop XYZ, whereas these powertrains are simply mandated tech for the sake of it.
said this before, but set the engine regs to 'you have X Kg's of fuel, do with it whatever you want' then we will see innovation and competition.
That said, is it F1's place to be doing this at all? what about the racing?
F1 has to move with the times though, so it doesn't look like a dinosaur using thirsty engines. Mercedes have been the only manufacture to cotton onto the idea of labeling their engine a hybrid unit to help with its PR/advertising. The WEC has got it down t a fine art in selling its product using new technology, yet F1 as ever makes a shambles of it with all of the politics that comes with it.
As much as I loved the days of the V12, V10 and V8 grids we will never see anything like that again. And we will never see open regulations again unless a cost cap comes into force because it just promotes a spending war and the loss of teams.
As much as I loved the days of the V12, V10 and V8 grids we will never see anything like that again. And we will never see open regulations again unless a cost cap comes into force because it just promotes a spending war and the loss of teams.
Scuffers said:
said this before, but set the engine regs to 'you have X Kg's of fuel, do with it whatever you want' then we will see innovation and competition.
Agreed, though replace X Kgs with Y KWh worth of fuel to allow alternate fuels such as methanol or diesel, but all containing the same total energy based on calorific value of the fuel.MartG said:
Scuffers said:
said this before, but set the engine regs to 'you have X Kg's of fuel, do with it whatever you want' then we will see innovation and competition.
Agreed, though replace X Kgs with Y KWh worth of fuel to allow alternate fuels such as methanol or diesel, but all containing the same total energy based on calorific value of the fuel.RichB said:
MartG said:
Scuffers said:
said this before, but set the engine regs to 'you have X Kg's of fuel, do with it whatever you want' then we will see innovation and competition.
Agreed, though replace X Kgs with Y KWh worth of fuel to allow alternate fuels such as methanol or diesel, but all containing the same total energy based on calorific value of the fuel.They don't Need to understand it just that they all have X fuel to race with.
Then on the on-screen graphic a fuel gauge in %.
Job done.
FW18 said:
F1 has to move with the times though, so it doesn't look like a dinosaur using thirsty engines. Mercedes have been the only manufacture to cotton onto the idea of labeling their engine a hybrid unit to help with its PR/advertising. The WEC has got it down t a fine art in selling its product using new technology, yet F1 as ever makes a shambles of it with all of the politics that comes with it.
As much as I loved the days of the V12, V10 and V8 grids we will never see anything like that again. And we will never see open regulations again unless a cost cap comes into force because it just promotes a spending war and the loss of teams.
I am pretty sure I read that the V8's did 2mpg and the V6 do a massive 4mpg...hardly a giant leap forward. As much as I loved the days of the V12, V10 and V8 grids we will never see anything like that again. And we will never see open regulations again unless a cost cap comes into force because it just promotes a spending war and the loss of teams.
Plus F1 will always look like a giant waste of resources as the carbon footprint of sending 20+ cars and equipment all over the world every two weeks will over shadow any marginal improvement they make with the engines.
Scuffers said:
RichB said:
MartG said:
Scuffers said:
said this before, but set the engine regs to 'you have X Kg's of fuel, do with it whatever you want' then we will see innovation and competition.
Agreed, though replace X Kgs with Y KWh worth of fuel to allow alternate fuels such as methanol or diesel, but all containing the same total energy based on calorific value of the fuel.They don't Need to understand it just that they all have X fuel to race with.
Then on the on-screen graphic a fuel gauge in %.
Job done.
Daston said:
I am pretty sure I read that the V8's did 2mpg and the V6 do a massive 4mpg...hardly a giant leap forward.
Plus F1 will always look like a giant waste of resources as the carbon footprint of sending 20+ cars and equipment all over the world every two weeks will over shadow any marginal improvement they make with the engines.
As with so much in politics, it is not so important to be actually doing something as to be seen to be doing something. Plus F1 will always look like a giant waste of resources as the carbon footprint of sending 20+ cars and equipment all over the world every two weeks will over shadow any marginal improvement they make with the engines.
Daston said:
FW18 said:
F1 has to move with the times though, so it doesn't look like a dinosaur using thirsty engines. Mercedes have been the only manufacture to cotton onto the idea of labeling their engine a hybrid unit to help with its PR/advertising. The WEC has got it down t a fine art in selling its product using new technology, yet F1 as ever makes a shambles of it with all of the politics that comes with it.
As much as I loved the days of the V12, V10 and V8 grids we will never see anything like that again. And we will never see open regulations again unless a cost cap comes into force because it just promotes a spending war and the loss of teams.
I am pretty sure I read that the V8's did 2mpg and the V6 do a massive 4mpg...hardly a giant leap forward. As much as I loved the days of the V12, V10 and V8 grids we will never see anything like that again. And we will never see open regulations again unless a cost cap comes into force because it just promotes a spending war and the loss of teams.
Plus F1 will always look like a giant waste of resources as the carbon footprint of sending 20+ cars and equipment all over the world every two weeks will over shadow any marginal improvement they make with the engines.
MartG said:
Scuffers said:
RichB said:
MartG said:
Scuffers said:
said this before, but set the engine regs to 'you have X Kg's of fuel, do with it whatever you want' then we will see innovation and competition.
Agreed, though replace X Kgs with Y KWh worth of fuel to allow alternate fuels such as methanol or diesel, but all containing the same total energy based on calorific value of the fuel.They don't Need to understand it just that they all have X fuel to race with.
Then on the on-screen graphic a fuel gauge in %.
Job done.
Then we will see what some of the greatest engineering minds can come up with. Who knows maybe and 800cc twin turboed V12/rotary/electric hybrid will be the solution, but at least we'd see real innovation. For me the WEC is now the pinnacle of world motorsport partially because of the different powertrains, how F1 has let this happen is beyond me.
Scuffers said:
RichB said:
MartG said:
Scuffers said:
said this before, but set the engine regs to 'you have X Kg's of fuel, do with it whatever you want' then we will see innovation and competition.
Agreed, though replace X Kgs with Y KWh worth of fuel to allow alternate fuels such as methanol or diesel, but all containing the same total energy based on calorific value of the fuel.They don't Need to understand it just that they all have X fuel to race with. Then on the on-screen graphic a fuel gauge in %. Job done.
RichB said:
Indeed why have a fuel limitation anyway? Perhaps just let the designer have larger or smaller tanks?
Exactly, as long as no refuelling is allowed, let them chose to trade extra weight of tanks/fuel and thirsty engine, over less fuel weight and less fuel usage....equally, if they don't want to have all the extra weight/complexity of the stupid hybrid systems......let the regs allow it.F1 should be the premier RACING SERIES, not the PREMIER w
kERFEST FOR TECHNO GEEKS SERIES.I am perfectly happy with a fuel limit : tank limits have been part of motor racing since the early days. It's the flow rate that seems utterly pointless to me - what is the purpose of it?
One thing that made the turbo era interesting was when they could turn up the boost for some of the race, but couldn't run full race distance at that power level.
Given the amount of hard braking, and limited time at top speed, I think a hybrid system would have an overall advantage over a pure ICE car, given some sort of fuel or energy limit.
Calorific value gets interesting : diesel is higher energy density by volume than petrol, IIRC, but I think slightly worse by weight, as there's less hydrogen.
Alcohol fuels are lighter again.
Given different combustion limits of different fuels, the weight / volume / enrgy tradeoffs get complex : alcohol and more boost tolerance, diesel and higher efficiency; who knows what would work best?
The only problems are a) keeping cost under control, and b) the danger of one team making (and possibly patenting) a technological edge that makes them too dominant.
On the other hand, we have problems with a) and b) at present anyway.
One thing that made the turbo era interesting was when they could turn up the boost for some of the race, but couldn't run full race distance at that power level.
Given the amount of hard braking, and limited time at top speed, I think a hybrid system would have an overall advantage over a pure ICE car, given some sort of fuel or energy limit.
Calorific value gets interesting : diesel is higher energy density by volume than petrol, IIRC, but I think slightly worse by weight, as there's less hydrogen.
Alcohol fuels are lighter again.
Given different combustion limits of different fuels, the weight / volume / enrgy tradeoffs get complex : alcohol and more boost tolerance, diesel and higher efficiency; who knows what would work best?
The only problems are a) keeping cost under control, and b) the danger of one team making (and possibly patenting) a technological edge that makes them too dominant.
On the other hand, we have problems with a) and b) at present anyway.
I generally know about historic racing and don't remember tank limits. Gassing Station | Formula 1 | Top of Page | What's New | My Stuff