Redbull not to use Renault engines in 2016

[aeropilot]

cjm said:

Scuffers said:

Vaud said:

Scuffers said:

And these is no availability problems, just a problem with red bull being tw4ts.

I partly agree. But choice of one engine doesn't make for a great formula. Victim of their own success, other teams are terrified of a Newey designed car with a great engine.

No, merc and ferrari both would have been open to supply, red bull pissed everybody off.

Yeap, they have the most successful engine manufacture in F1 and then turned on them after much one bad season, then properly pissed everyone off after two seasons.

You mean the 3rd most successful engine manufacturer in F1.

Ferrari - 225 wins
Ford - 176 wins
Renault - 168 wins

[groomi]

Unfortunately, F1 seems no longer to be interested in just having engine suppliers - they always want to end up running a works team.

Such a shame Cosworth and Pure didn't stick with their planned engines, but then where would the money come from to compete against the likes of Mercedes?

[Scuffers]

groomi said:

Unfortunately, F1 seems no longer to be interested in just having engine suppliers - they always want to end up running a works team.

Such a shame Cosworth and Pure didn't stick with their planned engines, but then where would the money come from to compete against the likes of Mercedes?

that's horribly nieve...

Manufactures have been running teams from day 1,

Apart from the obvious (Ferrari), we have had:

Alfa Romeo SpA
Officine Alfieri Maserati
Equipe Gordini
OSCA Automobili
Scuderia Lancia
Porsche
David Brown Corporation (Aston)
Automobili Turismo e Sport
Honda

(and that's just pre-1970)

[llewop]

groomi said:

Unfortunately, F1 seems no longer to be interested in just having engine suppliers - they always want to end up running a works team.

Such a shame Cosworth and Pure didn't stick with their planned engines, but then where would the money come from to compete against the likes of Mercedes?

The money to develop an engine that stands any chance against the manufacturers would be huge, I really struggle to see how anyone will make sense of that as an investment/proposition - unless they can just transfer existing technology from another existing series and even then unlikely to match the Merc/Ferrari units unless the playfield is on a hell of a slope.

I'm sure what is in the back of many peoples minds when dreaming about breaking the manufacturers hold on engine supply is the days of the Cosworth DFV when there were times that 2/3 or more of the grid had one in the back of the car; which only came into being due to the investment of a manufacturer: Ford.

The corner Red Bull have painted themselves into (to return to the topic) is largely of their own making - notwithstanding any presumptions they have/had that others would want to supply them an engine now they have fallen out of love with Renault (not sure they ever were - were sniping at them even when winning world championships!) - perhaps they would have been better served, having got themselves 'works team status' with Renault, would have been forming closer relationships with the engine development - pushing it, investing in it. The differentiator between Merc and any Merc customer team is that the Merc engine is configured to the requirements of their own team; the same probably true at Ferrari. So even if Red Bull had acquired 'latest spec' engines from either, it is entirely possible that they would have installation or performance issues vs the works teams.

[andyps]

llewop said:

perhaps they would have been better served, having got themselves 'works team status' with Renault, would have been forming closer relationships with the engine development - pushing it, investing in it. The differentiator between Merc and any Merc customer team is that the Merc engine is configured to the requirements of their own team; the same probably true at Ferrari. So even if Red Bull had acquired 'latest spec' engines from either, it is entirely possible that they would have installation or performance issues vs the works teams.

I think that is the main point, it is certainly why McLaren have gone for that option with Honda (it may work out eventually ) although Red Bull seem to want the status without actually being a works team. Had they been more diplomatic with Renault last year and this they would surely have been able to get themselves into a much better situation with their existing supplier, but they chose not to do that. effectively they were the works team with sponsorship from Infinity which more than covered the cost of the Renault engines.

[cjm]

aeropilot said:

You mean the 3rd most successful engine manufacturer in F1.

Ferrari - 225 wins
Ford - 176 wins
Renault - 168 wins

I'd say second since ford don't currently have an F1 engine

[aeropilot]

cjm said:

aeropilot said:

You mean the 3rd most successful engine manufacturer in F1.

Ferrari - 225 wins
Ford - 176 wins
Renault - 168 wins

I'd say second since ford don't currently have an F1 engine

Most successful means most successful, period, not most successful this year, or most successful of those currently competing, or most successful by any other definition.....and as you didn't qualify it by any means.......Renault are still 3rd until they win another 9 races

[RichB]

aeropilot said:

cjm said:

aeropilot said:

You mean the 3rd most successful engine manufacturer in F1.

Ferrari - 225 wins
Ford - 176 wins
Renault - 168 wins

I'd say second since ford don't currently have an F1 engine

Most successful means most successful, period, not most successful this year, or most successful of those currently competing, or most successful by any other definition.....and as you didn't qualify it by any means.......Renault are still 3rd until they win another 9 races

Fair point, well made.

[Composite Guru]

Interesting story here.

http://en.f1i.com/news/34585-mercedes-caused-red-b...

[Some Gump]

Composite Guru said:

Interesting story here.

http://en.f1i.com/news/34585-mercedes-caused-red-b...

Total fiction.

You don't get to have a global soft drinks empire by doing business on a handshake basis.
Also, I'd take Laura's word over the poison dwarf every time. Hell, only cynical Ali has a worse record on straight talking...

[AW111]

Scuffers said:

that's horribly nieve...

Manufactures have been running teams from day 1,

Apart from the obvious (Ferrari), we have had:

Alfa Romeo SpA
Officine Alfieri Maserati
Equipe Gordini
OSCA Automobili
Scuderia Lancia
Porsche
David Brown Corporation (Aston)
Automobili Turismo e Sport
Honda

(and that's just pre-1970)

And there is the converse situation : Brabham designed their own engine (based on a production block) with Repco, who were an automotive parts manufacturer, and won both driver & constructor championship in 1966.

Chassis : Taurenac / Brabham
Engine : Repco / Brabham
Team owner : Brabham
Lead driver : Brabham

[Derek Smith]

Some Gump said:

Total fiction.

You don't get to have a global soft drinks empire by doing business on a handshake basis.
Also, I'd take Laura's word over the poison dwarf every time. Hell, only cynical Ali has a worse record on straight talking...

I was friendly with a chap who was part of a team that negotiated with Dennis over a sponsorship deal. (He got me two visits to the Formula 1 Paddock Club.) He didn't take part, but went along as a sort of reward for some good work. He said that Dennis agreed a certain deal and then literally shook hands on it and the company's negotiators accepted it. It was then up to the lawyers to sort it out.

My friend, whose job was sales negotiations at a high level, said that he'd never seen anything like it and thought the negotiators idiots but they said that's they way they'd done things before with him.

I don't know if this goes for all/any of the other team owners/managers.

And: Also, I'd take Laura's word over the poison dwarf every time. Hell, only cynical Ali has a worse record on straight talking...

[Megaflow]

Some Gump said:

Composite Guru said:

Interesting story here.

http://en.f1i.com/news/34585-mercedes-caused-red-b...

Total fiction.

You don't get to have a global soft drinks empire by doing business on a handshake basis.
Also, I'd take Laura's word over the poison dwarf every time. Hell, only cynical Ali has a worse record on straight talking...

If any of that is true, which I doubt it is, then it is only Red Bull's fault, not Mercedes.

Who cancels one contract, before the replacement contract has been agreed.

[supertouring]

I recall Toto admitting it on TV, Lauda had agreed the deal but Toto later overturned it.

Whether this resulted in Redbull cancelling their Renault contract I don't know, but if the agreement was only in principle then a bad move by Redbull.

[thegreenhell]

It was a bit of a catch-22 though, wasn't it? Toto said that Mercedes couldn't agree a deal while the Renault contract was in place because of Merc's commercial tie-ins with Renault in the wider world. Whether they 'promised' to sign a deal if the Renault contract was cancelled is another matter.

[Scuffers]

supertouring said:

I recall Toto admitting it on TV, Lauda had agreed the deal but Toto later overturned it.

Whether this resulted in Redbull cancelling their Renault contract I don't know, but if the agreement was only in principle then a bad move by Redbull.

When?

And with respect, neither toto or lauda are in a position yo offer a deal off cuff, this is Mercedes, not some small private co. I am 100% sure that would require at least to be nodded by the board.

[Vaud]

Scuffers said:

When?

And with respect, neither toto or lauda are in a position yo offer a deal off cuff, this is Mercedes, not some small private co. I am 100% sure that would require at least to be nodded by the board.

I think Toto said that they had met, outlined next steps to progress (though no deal agreed) - that they could not commit whilst RB were committed to Renault given the Mercedes-Renault relationship - and shook hands that they would keep talking and look for more detail (though categorically not on a deal)

RB played that up as "shook hands on a deal"

[groomi]

Scuffers said:

groomi said:

Unfortunately, F1 seems no longer to be interested in just having engine suppliers - they always want to end up running a works team.

Such a shame Cosworth and Pure didn't stick with their planned engines, but then where would the money come from to compete against the likes of Mercedes?

that's horribly nieve...

Manufactures have been running teams from day 1,

Apart from the obvious (Ferrari), we have had:

Alfa Romeo SpA
Officine Alfieri Maserati
Equipe Gordini
OSCA Automobili
Scuderia Lancia
Porsche
David Brown Corporation (Aston)
Automobili Turismo e Sport
Honda

(and that's just pre-1970)

Yep, there's a reason they're all pre-1970 - they're from a bygone era when a bit of ingenuity could make a huge difference or a big wad of cash could by a whole car for you to put your star driver in, as opposed to today when it costs millions to find a fraction of a second and customer cars are banned.

Manufacturers and privateers have always been in the mix and I'm not suggesting that should be any different now, but because of the finances or the politics or both of F1, no independent engine manufacturers want to take part and so privateers are automatically at a disadvantage.

[MissChief]

Personally I'd be happy for them to introduce customer cars, but with last years Chassis, a bit like they do in DTM. The manufacturers would be happy to see it too. Thee dedicated race teams maybe not so much. I know Williams have always been dead against it.

[Scuffers]

groomi said:

Scuffers said:

groomi said:

Unfortunately, F1 seems no longer to be interested in just having engine suppliers - they always want to end up running a works team.

Such a shame Cosworth and Pure didn't stick with their planned engines, but then where would the money come from to compete against the likes of Mercedes?

that's horribly nieve...

Manufactures have been running teams from day 1,

Apart from the obvious (Ferrari), we have had:

Alfa Romeo SpA
Officine Alfieri Maserati
Equipe Gordini
OSCA Automobili
Scuderia Lancia
Porsche
David Brown Corporation (Aston)
Automobili Turismo e Sport
Honda

(and that's just pre-1970)

Yep, there's a reason they're all pre-1970 - they're from a bygone era when a bit of ingenuity could make a huge difference or a big wad of cash could by a whole car for you to put your star driver in, as opposed to today when it costs millions to find a fraction of a second and customer cars are banned.

Manufacturers and privateers have always been in the mix and I'm not suggesting that should be any different now, but because of the finances or the politics or both of F1, no independent engine manufacturers want to take part and so privateers are automatically at a disadvantage.

tosh.

here's the list 1980-

Ferrari
Renault
Alfa Romeo
Zakspeed
Osella
Life
Sauber
Arrows
Ford (Jaguar)
Toyota
Honda
BMW
Mercedes