Redbull not to use Renault engines in 2016
Discussion
RYH64E said:
Isn't that rather proving my point that customer teams are at a significant disadvantage?
not really no.the issue here is that (within the current regs) Merc are continuing to develop there PU.
now, back in Brixworth they are probably trying 100's of different things, so will pan out, some wont.
so, they come up with some stuff that works, and want to prove it on track, problem is that to use this new PU you have to spend X time and Y money on the car to accommodate it, everything from thermal loadings to software integration.
Williams are probably 100% aware of what's being tried, but cannot afford the time or the money to pre-emptively start work on accommodating the new PU when it's not 100% certain it's coming as planned and could well be wasted effort/money.
Merc the team are in the same boat, BUT, if Brixworth come up with something new, then somebody has to run it, and as it's also the factory team (with the money to spend) it's obviously going to be them.
Also, running a new PU is always going to be a risk, both in the possibility of a DNF but also in wasting one of your 4 engines, this has been born out when Nico's new PU failed, he had to use an old one, then then failed in the race.
Take what Red-Bull said about the new Renault engine last race, know doubt they spent the time and money to integrate it, with what they claim after the weekend was to zero benefit.
What I am getting at here is its far from an easy decision to take an upgraded PU for the customer teams, not that they are not available to them.
Scuffers said:
What I am getting at here is its far from an easy decision to take an upgraded PU for the customer teams, not that they are not available to them.
What you said the first time made more sense, Mercedes have time to optimise their chassis to incorporate changes necessary to run the latest version engines, customer teams don't. So, for whatever reason, whilst in season engine development is allowed, customer teams will always be a step behind the manufacturer teams and hence at a disadvantage. Whether the disadvantage is sufficient to prevent them winning races is debateable, but margins in F1 are very tight.RYH64E said:
What you said the first time made more sense, Mercedes have time to optimise their chassis to incorporate changes necessary to run the latest version engines, customer teams don't. So, for whatever reason, whilst in season engine development is allowed, customer teams will always be a step behind the manufacturer teams and hence at a disadvantage. Whether the disadvantage is sufficient to prevent them winning races is debateable, but margins in F1 are very tight.
get what your saying but it's still wide of the mark.Let's bring this back into everyday life.
BMW come up with a brand new 5 series, compete with new engines, floorplans, etc etc.
do you, as a customer spending the money buy the first one that comes of the production line or do you sit back a couple of months and see what they pan out like?
How many 'new' cars have issues that get resolved in the first few months? would you as a paying customer not do better to wait a bit and see how they go first?
However, all the BMW dealerships will be running round in them from day one, they have to, at the very least they have to show they are 100% confident in the new car.
See what I am getting at?
Back to F1, Red Bull were offered the upgraded PU from Renault and chose NOT to run it for a weekend (or was it two?), if Renault still had a works team, they would have run it day one, good or bad.
Scuffers said:
get what your saying but it's still wide of the mark.
Let's bring this back into everyday life.
BMW come up with a brand new 5 series, compete with new engines, floorplans, etc etc.
do you, as a customer spending the money buy the first one that comes of the production line or do you sit back a couple of months and see what they pan out like?
How many 'new' cars have issues that get resolved in the first few months? would you as a paying customer not do better to wait a bit and see how they go first?
However, all the BMW dealerships will be running round in them from day one, they have to, at the very least they have to show they are 100% confident in the new car.
See what I am getting at?
Back to F1, Red Bull were offered the upgraded PU from Renault and chose NOT to run it for a weekend (or was it two?), if Renault still had a works team, they would have run it day one, good or bad.
The manufacturers have every opportunity to assess the liklihood of an upgrade delivering a meaningful performance advantage, whether it will affect reliability, and take a decision accordingly. They have the data to make an informed decision.Let's bring this back into everyday life.
BMW come up with a brand new 5 series, compete with new engines, floorplans, etc etc.
do you, as a customer spending the money buy the first one that comes of the production line or do you sit back a couple of months and see what they pan out like?
How many 'new' cars have issues that get resolved in the first few months? would you as a paying customer not do better to wait a bit and see how they go first?
However, all the BMW dealerships will be running round in them from day one, they have to, at the very least they have to show they are 100% confident in the new car.
See what I am getting at?
Back to F1, Red Bull were offered the upgraded PU from Renault and chose NOT to run it for a weekend (or was it two?), if Renault still had a works team, they would have run it day one, good or bad.
Red Bull chose not to run the new engine because doing so meant taking another new engine and consequent grid penalty, which almost certainly would nullify any possible improvement in performance, the manufacturer teams can schedule the introduction of an upgraded engine to coincide with a planned new engine change without (for Mercedes) any penalties.
RYH64E said:
Scuffers said:
for example, Merc come up with a new upgrade that gives another X HP, but also changes the thermal loadings, Williams whilst wanting the extra power don't have time to re-engineer the installation to deal with the change in loadings so delay it's introduction a race or two.
Isn't that rather proving my point that customer teams are at a significant disadvantage?I think the same is effectively true for Renault. Their improvements from their token only became available for Sotchi, but again the benefits come from the 2016 tokens and so RB delayed holomogating the bits until Brazil.
Shell are also claiming a 0.5s per average lap gain for the fuel additives they have developed for Ferrari this year.
Of course, none of this development is road-relevant. We are just stuck with the stuff you get at the pumps.
Edited by rdjohn on Friday 27th November 18:10
So Red Bull will retain the Renault 2015 engines and in turn they'll be developed by Mario Ilien's engineering firm (along with presumably other companies who have the hybrid system well understood)?
Effectively, it'll be like the Mechachrome deal of the late 1990s and early 2000s with Benneton?
Effectively, it'll be like the Mechachrome deal of the late 1990s and early 2000s with Benneton?
Scuffers said:
I love the way you seem to think you can point the finger at me.
Quite apart from the original point being total b0ll0cks, you seem keen to twist it round to focus on me rather than the subject at hand.
Personally, I don't really care, I just find it amazing that when presented with the facts showing a basic premiss is wholly incorrect, you then take aim and the person pointing this out.
It wasn't specific to this thread, a general, light hearted observation from many threads, hence the silly analogy. Quite apart from the original point being total b0ll0cks, you seem keen to twist it round to focus on me rather than the subject at hand.
Personally, I don't really care, I just find it amazing that when presented with the facts showing a basic premiss is wholly incorrect, you then take aim and the person pointing this out.
I like a lot of what you post, you are a genuine, knowledgeable F1 fan.
It's just you have a bit of am argumentative style.
Vaud said:
It wasn't specific to this thread, a general, light hearted observation from many threads, hence the silly analogy.
I like a lot of what you post, you are a genuine, knowledgeable F1 fan.
It's just you have a bit of am argumentative style.
Indeed. I like a lot of what you post, you are a genuine, knowledgeable F1 fan.
It's just you have a bit of am argumentative style.
Now, can you two hug and make up and this thread continue to be a debate of adults, or do I have to unsubscribe from yet another thread that was otherwise interesting?
Scuffers said:
that was not the point being argued.
the accusation is that you cannot win unless you are a manufacture with your own engine, and no customer team can.
You're just not getting this are you?the accusation is that you cannot win unless you are a manufacture with your own engine, and no customer team can.
That is not the accusation as another poster has pointed out. The accusation which is backed up by cold hard facts, is that - you cannot win using a customer engine from a manufacturer that has it's own works team on the grid.
Really it should not be that difficult for your brain to process. You mention Brawn? Where were Mercs factory team in 2009? They were not on the grid until 2010. You mention redbull in 2010. The Renault team had already been bought out by Genii and dissolved before the end of 2010.
I think you would have to be very naïve to think a works team and a customer engine from the same manufacturer are exactly the same. McLaren made the right choice in trying a completely exclusive engine manufacturer. They made the wrong choice choosing Honda.(So far!)
DataHamster said:
Indeed.
Now, can you two hug and make up and this thread continue to be a debate of adults, or do I have to unsubscribe from yet another thread that was otherwise interesting?
I love Scuffers. There we are. Now, can you two hug and make up and this thread continue to be a debate of adults, or do I have to unsubscribe from yet another thread that was otherwise interesting?
Now, back to the issue - RB are screwed for the first part of next season - unless the new engine is nearly identical in CoG, mounting points, exhaust, etc?
My guess... Torro Rosso with a year old Ferrari engine to beat them in the fist block of races. Max V with a good chassis and a mid level engine. Perfect for Ferrari to evaluate him to replace Kimi.
amgmcqueen said:
You're just not getting this are you?
That is not the accusation as another poster has pointed out. The accusation which is backed up by cold hard facts, is that - you cannot win using a customer engine from a manufacturer that has it's own works team on the grid.
Really it should not be that difficult for your brain to process. You mention Brawn? Where were Mercs factory team in 2009? They were not on the grid until 2010. You mention redbull in 2010. The Renault team had already been bought out by Genii and dissolved before the end of 2010.
I think you would have to be very naïve to think a works team and a customer engine from the same manufacturer are exactly the same. McLaren made the right choice in trying a completely exclusive engine manufacturer. They made the wrong choice choosing Honda.(So far!)
you say I'm not getting it clearly you've never read the FIA rule book, it's very specific all the engines in F1 assumed that assembly in the presence of an FIA delegate, the engines are allocated to customers in front of an FIA delegate so please demonstrate the rest of us how you know the customer team engines are not the same specification as the factory teams?That is not the accusation as another poster has pointed out. The accusation which is backed up by cold hard facts, is that - you cannot win using a customer engine from a manufacturer that has it's own works team on the grid.
Really it should not be that difficult for your brain to process. You mention Brawn? Where were Mercs factory team in 2009? They were not on the grid until 2010. You mention redbull in 2010. The Renault team had already been bought out by Genii and dissolved before the end of 2010.
I think you would have to be very naïve to think a works team and a customer engine from the same manufacturer are exactly the same. McLaren made the right choice in trying a completely exclusive engine manufacturer. They made the wrong choice choosing Honda.(So far!)
Mercedes did specifically not supply the latest engine upgrade to customers this year - http://adamcooperf1.com/2015/10/16/upgraded-merced...
andyps said:
Mercedes did specifically not supply the latest engine upgrade to customers this year - http://adamcooperf1.com/2015/10/16/upgraded-merced...
Pfft, facts. You'll still be wrong somehow.Scuffers said:
RYH64E said:
What you said the first time made more sense, Mercedes have time to optimise their chassis to incorporate changes necessary to run the latest version engines, customer teams don't. So, for whatever reason, whilst in season engine development is allowed, customer teams will always be a step behind the manufacturer teams and hence at a disadvantage. Whether the disadvantage is sufficient to prevent them winning races is debateable, but margins in F1 are very tight.
get what your saying but it's still wide of the mark.Let's bring this back into everyday life.
BMW come up with a brand new 5 series, compete with new engines, floorplans, etc etc.
do you, as a customer spending the money buy the first one that comes of the production line or do you sit back a couple of months and see what they pan out like?
How many 'new' cars have issues that get resolved in the first few months? would you as a paying customer not do better to wait a bit and see how they go first?
However, all the BMW dealerships will be running round in them from day one, they have to, at the very least they have to show they are 100% confident in the new car.
See what I am getting at?
Back to F1, Red Bull were offered the upgraded PU from Renault and chose NOT to run it for a weekend (or was it two?), if Renault still had a works team, they would have run it day one, good or bad.
Some Gump said:
andyps said:
Mercedes did specifically not supply the latest engine upgrade to customers this year - http://adamcooperf1.com/2015/10/16/upgraded-merced...
Pfft, facts. You'll still be wrong somehow.
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