Would you work in F1?
Discussion
stemll said:
Interviewer seemed much more interested in work environment and commitment and "have you ever applied to work in F1 or motorsport before" with not a lot of interest in skills. Seemed to me as though the main qualifying criteria was wanting the job "because it's F1" more than anything else and being prepared to work whenever and wherever they wanted without batting an eyelid or daring to question it. With two young kids I doubt I'd have lasted a season, certainly not two.
That's because skills in a team can be taught easily to the right people but the mentality required for success in an enviroment such as F1 cannot. Each and every member of the team is utterly indespensible in their role or their role wouldn't exist and failure to complete it well or put it anywhere but near the top of your priority list means the next guy along/either side is going to have to pick up what you haven't been able to complete.... at which point you are not contributing to the teams success anymore.You're in it because you love it, because it's a lifestyle not a job and for most of the people I know (and myself) you never really leave it. Even if you do what we do now, which is about as far away from the stress of a team you can get, the mentality and ethic is still absolutely as it was. You support your team mates, you get the job done to the absolute best of your ability regardless of what else is going on and above all else you strive to be better than the guys up/down the pit lane at all times. For the right person nothing beats it and everything else is just a poor comparison. For the wrong person it would be a nightmare, if you want fixed hours don't do motorsport in general (let alone F1). So don't be too harsh to whoever was interviewing you because they did their job well and saved you from ending up in a role that from the sound of it you would have disliked very much.
Composite Guru said:
I've been in it 18 years. Yes its stressful sometimes but ever changing technologies and constant need to better what you are doing makes it an interesting job.
It's RB you work for isn't it? They do seem one of the better teams to work for. I've yet to hear of anyone who enjoys working for Mclaren, a friend of my mum's did 6 months there as an initial temporary contract and I don't think he even finished the 3rd month it was such a miserable place to be.
My neighbour was a mechanic for a middle of the pack team for a number of years (would also be a wheel changer during the race), apparently the travelling really takes its toll after the novelty of the first year or two. As soon as a job back in the factory came up he went for it...he's happy now! I haven't seen his payslip, but he's very comfortable.
I also used to hear a lot from an IT guy at Brawn/Mercedes, very similar stories regarding the travelling, exhaustion and moral (even for a championship winning team) for the long fly-away stints.
I also used to hear a lot from an IT guy at Brawn/Mercedes, very similar stories regarding the travelling, exhaustion and moral (even for a championship winning team) for the long fly-away stints.
Edited by ukaskew on Monday 5th October 22:11
LordGrover said:
You didn't get it then?
Never got to the point of them either offering or declining.poppopbangbang said:
stemll said:
Interviewer seemed much more interested in work environment and commitment and "have you ever applied to work in F1 or motorsport before" with not a lot of interest in skills. Seemed to me as though the main qualifying criteria was wanting the job "because it's F1" more than anything else and being prepared to work whenever and wherever they wanted without batting an eyelid or daring to question it. With two young kids I doubt I'd have lasted a season, certainly not two.
That's because skills in a team can be taught easily to the right people but the mentality required for success in an enviroment such as F1 cannot. Each and every member of the team is utterly indespensible in their role or their role wouldn't exist and failure to complete it well or put it anywhere but near the top of your priority list means the next guy along/either side is going to have to pick up what you haven't been able to complete.... at which point you are not contributing to the teams success anymore.You're in it because you love it, because it's a lifestyle not a job and for most of the people I know (and myself) you never really leave it. Even if you do what we do now, which is about as far away from the stress of a team you can get, the mentality and ethic is still absolutely as it was. You support your team mates, you get the job done to the absolute best of your ability regardless of what else is going on and above all else you strive to be better than the guys up/down the pit lane at all times. For the right person nothing beats it and everything else is just a poor comparison. For the wrong person it would be a nightmare, if you want fixed hours don't do motorsport in general (let alone F1). So don't be too harsh to whoever was interviewing you because they did their job well and saved you from ending up in a role that from the sound of it you would have disliked very much.
I spent three years working in Woking with McLaren in the late 90's and had a great time. The salary wasn't great, but I was in my late 20's and enjoyed the travel, building relationships with clients and the marketing side of the sport. However after a time I wanted more, moved on up the corporate ladder and never looked back. Would I work for another team in a senior management role, no not today. the whole side of sports marketing and sponsorship has moved on and CVC make it vey hard for the teams to find new investors. Never a fan of racing as such, BTCC was where my heart was and have worked there too. The business side of the sport is fascinating and the people at McLaren then were mostly marvellous. Working twelve days out of fourteen and missing family events at weekends was hard, but it was a good career move at my age.
When Stewart GP was in the throws of setting up, they came very close to being based in Basildon in the old Rothmans Fag Factory and had a few chats with them about a role in the marketing department. Would have been ideal at the time as Iived not far away and what they wanted I did! As it was, they ended up in Milton Keynes but something I felt very early on is that outsiders seeking to get inside F1 are treated at best with suspicion at worst, derision. From what I experienced, when they recruit from beyond the sport, they do so very reluctantly and if you are successful, it takes a long while for you to become part of the establishment.
I did my apprenticeship for a small precision engineering firm that supplied pretty much everyone with the exception of Minardi and Ferrari.
Used to be good fun, but the hours were terrible and some of the teams expectations were a little odd..(I'm looking at you McLaren!)
As an apprentice it was brilliant - we got to make loads of prototype pieces, 1/4 scale stuff for the wind tunnels, gearbox casings, wing mirror moulds - you name it. We got invited to quite a few parties - Jordan being the most regular and everyone who was directly involved with the teams seemed really chilled out and happy, even during the race weekends. (We'd sometimes have to run bits up to the pits in a hurry if someone binned it over the weekend)
All in all a good thing, but not a great life if you have other commitments away from work.
Used to be good fun, but the hours were terrible and some of the teams expectations were a little odd..(I'm looking at you McLaren!)
As an apprentice it was brilliant - we got to make loads of prototype pieces, 1/4 scale stuff for the wind tunnels, gearbox casings, wing mirror moulds - you name it. We got invited to quite a few parties - Jordan being the most regular and everyone who was directly involved with the teams seemed really chilled out and happy, even during the race weekends. (We'd sometimes have to run bits up to the pits in a hurry if someone binned it over the weekend)
All in all a good thing, but not a great life if you have other commitments away from work.
I spent 4 years on the race team and that was enough, people generally fell into two categories, they either did a few years and got out, or were "lifers" who become so ingrained that they could only live inside the F1 bubble and would be almost useless in normal society.
Good points - If you love F1 it helps, adrenaline buzz of a race start and pitstops are immense, overall the money was pretty good then with win bonuses on top of that, hence some people becoming the "lifers" mentioned above.
Bad points - The hours, I was there pre curfew and at the start of the season 100 hour weeks were normal. It became a bit of a running joke that if you calculated your hourly rate you could work in McDonalds and earn the same amount. The glamour on TV does not translate to the actual workers, flights are cattle class at the back of the plane and shared rooms were normal. Expectation was the F1 team would always come first, sickness was not an option, you would function on zero sleep and could only take time off in the August gap and at Christmas, best mates wedding clashes with a race, sorry no chance. One of the guys was ex army and likened it to the same mentality of being told where to be, what to wear, where to sleep, when to eat etc.
Final straw for me was I was thinking of settling down and having kids which simply does not work with all the travelling, the wife of one of the guys on the race team had their first child on the Tuesday before the race and was told he had to be on his flight on Wednesday morning or he would lose his job. Sorry but no thanks.
If I could gone back to working at the factory on normal pay I would probably still be there but unfortunately that was not an option for me.
Looking back I enjoyed it and there were plenty of high points I can look back on, realising the above paints quite a negative picture if I was 25 I would still do it again but I am glad I got out when I did.
Good points - If you love F1 it helps, adrenaline buzz of a race start and pitstops are immense, overall the money was pretty good then with win bonuses on top of that, hence some people becoming the "lifers" mentioned above.
Bad points - The hours, I was there pre curfew and at the start of the season 100 hour weeks were normal. It became a bit of a running joke that if you calculated your hourly rate you could work in McDonalds and earn the same amount. The glamour on TV does not translate to the actual workers, flights are cattle class at the back of the plane and shared rooms were normal. Expectation was the F1 team would always come first, sickness was not an option, you would function on zero sleep and could only take time off in the August gap and at Christmas, best mates wedding clashes with a race, sorry no chance. One of the guys was ex army and likened it to the same mentality of being told where to be, what to wear, where to sleep, when to eat etc.
Final straw for me was I was thinking of settling down and having kids which simply does not work with all the travelling, the wife of one of the guys on the race team had their first child on the Tuesday before the race and was told he had to be on his flight on Wednesday morning or he would lose his job. Sorry but no thanks.
If I could gone back to working at the factory on normal pay I would probably still be there but unfortunately that was not an option for me.
Looking back I enjoyed it and there were plenty of high points I can look back on, realising the above paints quite a negative picture if I was 25 I would still do it again but I am glad I got out when I did.
I work for a supplier to alot of the F1 teams. I get to design/see some interesting parts but with less of the crazy hours of a working for one of the teams.
I have considered a few roles in the past but deep down i dont think id love the job enough to do the time. Got quite a few friends who work in various teams and have been there for a number of years, they all seem to enjoy it!
I have considered a few roles in the past but deep down i dont think id love the job enough to do the time. Got quite a few friends who work in various teams and have been there for a number of years, they all seem to enjoy it!
Derek Smith said:
Otispunkmeyer said:
A question I often ask myself; "would I actually like to work in F1?"
I have the interest; I have watched F1 since about 95 when I was 10 years old. I believe I posses the aptitude; 1st class MEng + a PhD and was offered a job by Ilmore in May last year but in the end turned it down.
I turned it down because I just wasn't sure it was what I wanted. The money was merely average, but they wanted a pound of flesh and then some. Plus the location just didn't fit at the time, there would have been no work for my OH.
It seems to me, like its something you do out of sheer love. The money doesn't matter so long as you can put a roof over your head and you won't mind spending a lot of time in the office or at the factory. Do I really love F1 that much, do I have the passion?! To add, I once was able to speak to an old hand aero guy from McLaren. The picture he painted was one of relativlely low pay, slow progression and stuck in an office running CFD simulations on bits of front wing endlessly.
A friend also worked at Woking for the F1 team and described a very sterile, anodyne environment where you couldn't even have so much as a few loose sheets of paper on your desk. In Mark Webber's recent book, he painted a pretty bleak picture of what is was like to work at Williams F1, saying everyone looked glum and that he didn't know a single person who would say working there was a happy existence. Whilst he said RedBull was much better, the inter-team politics sounded like it would make for a very stressed out environment.
So I don't know.... would you? unless you're at the very top, pay doesn't sound great, long hours, potential for huge stress (at my Ilmore interview they were very open about how frequently they will pull all nighters or be in the office all weekend on race weekends trouble shooting). To me it sounds like you have to have an intense love and passion for motor-racing to be able to put up with the bad bits.
That's a very depressing post. But then, I didn't expect it to be fun at such a high level.I have the interest; I have watched F1 since about 95 when I was 10 years old. I believe I posses the aptitude; 1st class MEng + a PhD and was offered a job by Ilmore in May last year but in the end turned it down.
I turned it down because I just wasn't sure it was what I wanted. The money was merely average, but they wanted a pound of flesh and then some. Plus the location just didn't fit at the time, there would have been no work for my OH.
It seems to me, like its something you do out of sheer love. The money doesn't matter so long as you can put a roof over your head and you won't mind spending a lot of time in the office or at the factory. Do I really love F1 that much, do I have the passion?! To add, I once was able to speak to an old hand aero guy from McLaren. The picture he painted was one of relativlely low pay, slow progression and stuck in an office running CFD simulations on bits of front wing endlessly.
A friend also worked at Woking for the F1 team and described a very sterile, anodyne environment where you couldn't even have so much as a few loose sheets of paper on your desk. In Mark Webber's recent book, he painted a pretty bleak picture of what is was like to work at Williams F1, saying everyone looked glum and that he didn't know a single person who would say working there was a happy existence. Whilst he said RedBull was much better, the inter-team politics sounded like it would make for a very stressed out environment.
So I don't know.... would you? unless you're at the very top, pay doesn't sound great, long hours, potential for huge stress (at my Ilmore interview they were very open about how frequently they will pull all nighters or be in the office all weekend on race weekends trouble shooting). To me it sounds like you have to have an intense love and passion for motor-racing to be able to put up with the bad bits.
I was a guest in the pits for a number of LMES races and the atmosphere was very supportive. The mechanics seemed to want to help their colleagues and no one seemed afraid to admit they needed help, always a good sign I think. I enjoyed it. One thing which surprised me was how excited the guys got in the races. When a car expired during the race, the atmosphere went well down and no one seemed to try and get it back up, despite there being two cars. When one car was taken out by a dreadfully driven Audi at the Bus Stop, the concern of the guys sent shivers down my spine, and then, when the report came back of all OK, they got on with their work as if nothing had happened.
It was very exciting. The only ones who threw a strop or weren't interested in the team as much as themselves, were the drivers.
I wouldn't want to do it though. All that hard work, all that expertise, and then they hand the cars over to egotistical idiots who drive it into the barriers and blame a 'sudden odd sensation with the steering'. Yes, mate, you were driving over stones.
The Secret Mechanic in Autosport has an interesting article about working in F1 and the stress and strains of it, in particular with the longer seasons now.
http://bbs.hupu.com/13916464.html
http://bbs.hupu.com/13916464.html
ukaskew said:
My neighbour was a mechanic for a middle of the pack team for a number of years (would also be a wheel changer during the race), apparently the travelling really takes its toll after the novelty of the first year or two. As soon as a job back in the factory came up he went for it...he's happy now! I haven't seen his payslip, but he's very comfortable.
I also used to hear a lot from an IT guy at Brawn/Mercedes, very similar stories regarding the travelling, exhaustion and moral (even for a championship winning team) for the long fly-away stints.
Regarding pay, Merc High Performance engines lot down Northampton way have some really good per win bonus money. Everyone gets a nice little pot per race win, slightly smaller pots for second and third and it goes not just for the works team, but those running customer engines as well. With Mercedes mopping up a lot of 1-2's, bank accounts were looking plum! They've designed and built the best engines and its winning races hand over fist (or was last year at least) so its well deserved!I also used to hear a lot from an IT guy at Brawn/Mercedes, very similar stories regarding the travelling, exhaustion and moral (even for a championship winning team) for the long fly-away stints.
Edited by ukaskew on Monday 5th October 22:11
citizensm1th said:
Otispunkmeyer said:
Did you do your PhD at Loughborough? BTW, thank you all (so far) for the sensible posts. I was worried it would be derailed at some point. Thanks too to those who have worked or are still working in/for F1 and have chimed in with their experiences; very useful insights. Good luck to those guys getting interviewed hope you get the jobs you want!
Edited by Otispunkmeyer on Tuesday 6th October 22:52
Otispunkmeyer said:
I guess WEC and LMES are sorta in the same realm? In Webber's book the difference between how people and teams behave in WEC is wildly different to his experience in F1. It sounded like there is more concern for each other across teams. More camaraderie. In fact a cool point was on Porsches return to Le Mans, Audi won. Porsche guys went down to the Audi garage to congratulate them and the Audi team gave Porsche a bit of a standing ovation instead, recognising their achievement in the first Le Mans back despite not winning. Very sporting. But then Le Mans really is an extreme test of man and machine, everyone has to have everyone elses back to get through it.
As a fan / viewer, I think that endurance racing has a lot more camaraderie / sportsmanship etc, by a massive amount. However, that's easy to have because the financial and technical pressure is totally different. Last weekend in TUSCC, the Michael Shank car stacked badly in practice. The tub was damaged, they were out of the race. Instead, Elan (the team behind the Deltawing), who are in the SAME CLASS helped Shank, and as a result Shank made the grid. In F1 that's just not possible - the team with the damaged car wouldn't let the car get under scrutiny of rival engineers. Moreover, If it was F1, Elan wouldn't afford commercially to help - because the points they _might_ get in the race could be potentially worth millions.On the tradition / sporting side, the history / target market etc promotes the (great) behavior you reliably see at the 24. When Toyota was 1/2 a lap behind and closing rapidly, but with 2-3 laps to go at the end of (2013?), they knew they weren't going to manage - they'd been beaten. By calling off the dogs, approacing Audi and shaking Dr Ulrich's hand saying "make your formation for the photo, we will respect the gap", they win the hearts and minds vote. This way, they get to win whilst losing.
In F1, the teams have to constantly fight by pushing the boundaries of the rules right to the cusp of "cheating". These definitions are often as much decided by politicing and lobbying as anything else. A tuned mass damper out of the airflow is a movable aero device. A tuned mass damper that is also a floor (in the airflow) is not. F1 people can't be gracious losers, they can't be friends - world titles, and mllions of dollars rest on as little as 1 point, or 1 tiny point conceded on the letter of a rule.
Nothing to do with working in F1, but ^ is the feeling I get from watching various series as a fan =)
Muzzer79 said:
The drivers are paid according to demand.
Most nowadays actually don't earn that much. I'm talking the Maldonado, Verstappen, Sainz & Ericssons of this world. Either because they're young and inexperienced, or they get paid by their sponsors.
There's then a middle bracket of reasonable earners - low-ish millions per year, in which I include Button, Massa, Ricciardo, Rosberg and probably now Raikkonen.
Only the top few get multi-multi million deals - Hamilton, Alonso and Vettel are currently the only ones in this bracket I think.
It's easy to say they get too much, but there's very few people in the world who can drive an F1 car fast and even fewer who are the fastest.
Rosberg and Kimi are in the top category as well with £9,5M and €18M respectively, and Button isn't doing to bad either with £7M (I've heard £6M too).Most nowadays actually don't earn that much. I'm talking the Maldonado, Verstappen, Sainz & Ericssons of this world. Either because they're young and inexperienced, or they get paid by their sponsors.
There's then a middle bracket of reasonable earners - low-ish millions per year, in which I include Button, Massa, Ricciardo, Rosberg and probably now Raikkonen.
Only the top few get multi-multi million deals - Hamilton, Alonso and Vettel are currently the only ones in this bracket I think.
It's easy to say they get too much, but there's very few people in the world who can drive an F1 car fast and even fewer who are the fastest.
Complete list (if correct):
http://www.grandprixtimes.com/news/display/10530
Great thread by the way.
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