Has F1 reached a new low?
Discussion
2 sMoKiN bArReLs said:
Abu Dhabi for example was sold out for the race, was a ghost town prior
I 100% agree with this when you are talking about those venues in countries where motor sport is very much an "outsider's" interest and the arrival of the F1 circus is totally out of context for those countries' sporting interests (if they have any) and overall culture. suffolk009 said:
Sochi viewing figures compared to last year: BBC down 13%, Sky down 25%.
Any other business, the management would be seriously worried. F1 just keep playing the same tune.
One wonders how much CVC are to be paid by their buy-out consortium. RB, TR, Lotus, Renault all with their future in doubt. What amounts to a CCJ pending. A 25% drop in viewing figures! In the negotiation room I can see a flip chart with -25% written on it in big figures.Any other business, the management would be seriously worried. F1 just keep playing the same tune.
The sell off was always going to be the most dangerous time for the sport, or at least the build up to it with short term decisions being made.
I've changed my mind to an extent in that I was worried that the buy-out might be the worst of all options for F1. Now I think the changes it will bring in might well be the biggest opportunity for positive change in years.
The problem for F1 is that it is seen as the pinnacle of the sport. Such a title is ephemeral. It depends on the classic smoke and mirrors. This is in short supply. Once it is realised that the emperor has no clothes, it all falls down.
Whatever, this is not a good time for the sport.
Derek Smith said:
Eric Mc said:
And Imola when I was there.
Argentina and Brazil and Japan are also foreign venues that have been very well supported.
Argentina and Brazil are a little different in that they have had some top class drivers. Japan has had some top engines. They've earned their races.Argentina and Brazil and Japan are also foreign venues that have been very well supported.
suffolk009 said:
Sochi viewing figures compared to last year: BBC down 13%, Sky down 25%.
Any other business, the management would be seriously worried. F1 just keep playing the same tune.
Those are amazing reductions. The worry is that I think Bernie Co. have already switched to believing that pay-per-view will be the future business model.Any other business, the management would be seriously worried. F1 just keep playing the same tune.
They do not give a dam about spectators, or viewing numbers, only the money talks.
If they believe pay per view is the future they really need to look at those Sky viewing figures. I don't know what that makes the absolutes in terms of numbers but if numbers go down like that it has to reduce the business case for Sky to dedicate a channel to F1, or even show it at all. If that were to happen the route Bernie has followed would be found to be completely wrong.
Eric Mc said:
2 sMoKiN bArReLs said:
Abu Dhabi for example was sold out for the race, was a ghost town prior
I 100% agree with this when you are talking about those venues in countries where motor sport is very much an "outsider's" interest and the arrival of the F1 circus is totally out of context for those countries' sporting interests (if they have any) and overall culture. My friend works for a bank in Dubai and his firm gets lots of free tickets every year which they use to invite business people from all over the world. Many of the tickets are given away for free.
And that is a good reason for F1 to go there?
Is it sustainable?
Does it benefit the future of the sport?
Is it creating a motor sport culture in that country?
Are young Abu Dhabians wanting to become racing drivers or pinning pictures of Lewis Hamilton or Mercedes F1 cars on their bedroom walls?
Is it sustainable?
Does it benefit the future of the sport?
Is it creating a motor sport culture in that country?
Are young Abu Dhabians wanting to become racing drivers or pinning pictures of Lewis Hamilton or Mercedes F1 cars on their bedroom walls?
Eric Mc said:
And that is a good reason for F1 to go there?
Is it sustainable?
Does it benefit the future of the sport?
Is it creating a motor sport culture in that country?
Are young Abu Dhabians wanting to become racing drivers or pinning pictures of Lewis Hamilton or Mercedes F1 cars on their bedroom walls?
Its ALL about money. If it works financially, then it will stay.Is it sustainable?
Does it benefit the future of the sport?
Is it creating a motor sport culture in that country?
Are young Abu Dhabians wanting to become racing drivers or pinning pictures of Lewis Hamilton or Mercedes F1 cars on their bedroom walls?
However, they are treading a fine line. Lose the viewers, lose the money.
It's probably been mentioned before but I quiet like the idea of a reverse grid.
1st in the previous race starts at the back etc. Maybe not for the whole season but certainly better than this double points nonsense on the last race. Maybe every other race.
Would certainly make things exciting and give plenty of overtaking. With the true racers being able to shine.
Don't know how financially important qualifying is these days but you could have some way to continue it where the qualifying as we know it now could attract points towards the championship. Saturday is then a time trial with Sunday being a race.
As the cars get more reliable and easier to drive the mistakes/failures will only get fewer and the procession will continue. It needs mixing up a bit at the start.
1st in the previous race starts at the back etc. Maybe not for the whole season but certainly better than this double points nonsense on the last race. Maybe every other race.
Would certainly make things exciting and give plenty of overtaking. With the true racers being able to shine.
Don't know how financially important qualifying is these days but you could have some way to continue it where the qualifying as we know it now could attract points towards the championship. Saturday is then a time trial with Sunday being a race.
As the cars get more reliable and easier to drive the mistakes/failures will only get fewer and the procession will continue. It needs mixing up a bit at the start.
Edited by Harry H on Tuesday 13th October 10:42
Edited by Harry H on Tuesday 13th October 10:44
Apparently F1’s just not as good as it was. Then again, history improves the further away it gets – we typically regard Henry VIII as a roister-doisteringly good all-round chap, forgetting the vicious and paranoid tyrant he became.
In short, I think people are wearing rose-tinted racing goggles
I’ve heard the “F1’s rubbish these days, not like in the old days” comment pretty much every year for the last three decades. But it’s simply not true to say that there was a wonderful golden age when every race was full of wheel-banging action, at least not since I’ve been watching. I remember tedious races from the 90s and 00s, dreadful affairs where no-one could pass – the Monaco GP in 2003 had literally zero overtakes. We’ve had periods of domination by Ferrari, Williams, McLaren & Red Bull, so the current Mercedes position is hardly new. Tyres have been a problem since forever; the issues with Michelin at the US GP in 2005 were a stand-out low point, but I seem to recall a moustachioed Brit failing to win a world championship because of a tyre explosion. We’ve also had winners who’s been off into the distance before - Damon Hill managed to win by 2 full laps in the 1995 Australian GP.
Duff tracks? Sure, we’ve got some strange ones now, but remember Zolder, Phoenix, Caesar’s Palace, Aida/Tanaka? All unmitigatedly terrible.
On top of all of that, we’ve had many occasions where large teams have pulled out – BMW, Honda, Toyota are all recent, but over the years there have been many, many others. And we’ve also had the situation where Championship-winning teams have had to use a less-than-wonderful power unit; Williams parted company with Honda and had to go to Judd, of all people, in 1988ish, with predictably useless results.
One change I’ve noticed is quality. Drivers are genuinely better these days – there were some awesomely s
t pay drivers all the way up until a few years back – and cars are more reliable. Given the increase in skill level and the reduction in engine blow-ups, it means that there are far fewer retirements, thus the unpredictability is somewhat reduced. That said, we still have Pastor Maldonado, and both Grosjean and Hulkenberg managed to throw their cars off the track in Sochi without any apparent assistance, adding to the comedy. Teams take it more seriously these days, and you can’t just rock up with a chassis you bought from Lola, a DFV and a bunch of oily-handed spannermen; you have to be seriously well-funded. But that’s a function of success; the sport’s grown like Topsy, and the rewards have gone to the victors.
So I’d love to know when the so-called golden age of F1 actually took place. For me it’s as exciting as it’s ever been. We have a British World Champion who isn’t a corporate drone and who is thrashing his (very good) team-mate. Sure, it’d be closer with Vettel in the team, but nothing’s perfect in life.
It would be myopic in the extreme to claim that F1 is in rude health, and I struggle to understand how it can survive financially without major change, but for the last 20+ years it’s been a sport of haves and have-nots, of barely-solvent hopefuls, of pay-drivers and dodgy dealings, and despite that it’s managed to carry on. It’s going to change, and significantly, when the ringmaster retires (either gracefully, to his own timetable, or in a rather less planned way) which, if the laws of nature continue to function as one might expect. So we all know that within the next 5 years it’ll be very different.
For me it would be improved with one or two more manufacturers, with a genuine cost cap (say a maximum of £150m and 750 employees), and with the reintroduction of refuelling, but we’ll see what happens when Bernie goes. Bring Toto in as the boss – funny, trustworthy, plain-speaking and massively financially astute – and you’ve got someone who can take it on for a couple of decades. Add in less fragile tyres (with a choice of manufacturer), more in-season development, make it a free-to-air proposition to ensure it doesn’t become forgotten, and I’d say it’d be fine.
In short, I think people are wearing rose-tinted racing goggles
I’ve heard the “F1’s rubbish these days, not like in the old days” comment pretty much every year for the last three decades. But it’s simply not true to say that there was a wonderful golden age when every race was full of wheel-banging action, at least not since I’ve been watching. I remember tedious races from the 90s and 00s, dreadful affairs where no-one could pass – the Monaco GP in 2003 had literally zero overtakes. We’ve had periods of domination by Ferrari, Williams, McLaren & Red Bull, so the current Mercedes position is hardly new. Tyres have been a problem since forever; the issues with Michelin at the US GP in 2005 were a stand-out low point, but I seem to recall a moustachioed Brit failing to win a world championship because of a tyre explosion. We’ve also had winners who’s been off into the distance before - Damon Hill managed to win by 2 full laps in the 1995 Australian GP.
Duff tracks? Sure, we’ve got some strange ones now, but remember Zolder, Phoenix, Caesar’s Palace, Aida/Tanaka? All unmitigatedly terrible.
On top of all of that, we’ve had many occasions where large teams have pulled out – BMW, Honda, Toyota are all recent, but over the years there have been many, many others. And we’ve also had the situation where Championship-winning teams have had to use a less-than-wonderful power unit; Williams parted company with Honda and had to go to Judd, of all people, in 1988ish, with predictably useless results.
One change I’ve noticed is quality. Drivers are genuinely better these days – there were some awesomely s
t pay drivers all the way up until a few years back – and cars are more reliable. Given the increase in skill level and the reduction in engine blow-ups, it means that there are far fewer retirements, thus the unpredictability is somewhat reduced. That said, we still have Pastor Maldonado, and both Grosjean and Hulkenberg managed to throw their cars off the track in Sochi without any apparent assistance, adding to the comedy. Teams take it more seriously these days, and you can’t just rock up with a chassis you bought from Lola, a DFV and a bunch of oily-handed spannermen; you have to be seriously well-funded. But that’s a function of success; the sport’s grown like Topsy, and the rewards have gone to the victors.So I’d love to know when the so-called golden age of F1 actually took place. For me it’s as exciting as it’s ever been. We have a British World Champion who isn’t a corporate drone and who is thrashing his (very good) team-mate. Sure, it’d be closer with Vettel in the team, but nothing’s perfect in life.
It would be myopic in the extreme to claim that F1 is in rude health, and I struggle to understand how it can survive financially without major change, but for the last 20+ years it’s been a sport of haves and have-nots, of barely-solvent hopefuls, of pay-drivers and dodgy dealings, and despite that it’s managed to carry on. It’s going to change, and significantly, when the ringmaster retires (either gracefully, to his own timetable, or in a rather less planned way) which, if the laws of nature continue to function as one might expect. So we all know that within the next 5 years it’ll be very different.
For me it would be improved with one or two more manufacturers, with a genuine cost cap (say a maximum of £150m and 750 employees), and with the reintroduction of refuelling, but we’ll see what happens when Bernie goes. Bring Toto in as the boss – funny, trustworthy, plain-speaking and massively financially astute – and you’ve got someone who can take it on for a couple of decades. Add in less fragile tyres (with a choice of manufacturer), more in-season development, make it a free-to-air proposition to ensure it doesn’t become forgotten, and I’d say it’d be fine.
Sure we have some dull tracks in places where nobody likes F1 but the big problem is the dominance of Mercedes and Rosberg's lack of challenge. If Rosberg could just lift his game or Hamilton could split up with his girlfriend, it could suddenly become a great season. Increasing testing or funding or changing rules etc just appears to result in Mercedes getting further ahead.
I agree though, it's the definitely the dullest season I've ever watched, and I never thought I'd get bored of watching a British driver winning races.
I agree though, it's the definitely the dullest season I've ever watched, and I never thought I'd get bored of watching a British driver winning races.
longblackcoat said:
I’ve heard the “F1’s rubbish these days, not like in the old days” comment pretty much every year for the last three decades. But it’s simply not true to say that there was a wonderful golden age when every race was full of wheel-banging action, at least not since I’ve been watching.
I agree but I really enjoyed the last two seasons, just not this one. I'm certainly not hankering back to the Schumaker era or when Adrian Newey was dominating. This season specifically stands out amongst all others as being the dullest ever that I can remember. I keep watching in the hope that there will be some interest and excitement but thus far there hasn't been a great deal of it.
longblackcoat said:
In short, I think people are wearing rose-tinted racing goggles
History isn't important. It is what the sport is doing now and where it is going. PPV is not the answer. Free to air is the sensible option for a sport that relies so heavily on sponsors. As point out by Eric, the business model is dreadful. It is short-termism. There is no succession plan. There is just the profit, or as some suggest, cutting losses.
I'm not sure what Henry VIII every did for motor sport, but at least he took us out of the clutches of the western pope. I'll hear nothing against him. All in all though he was about the same as any other monarch of the times, just a bit too religious.
And for deaths in his reign, Chas I takes some beating.
While there are definitely a lot of things 'wrong' in the current state of F1 the actual racing isn't too shabby IMO - I know there isn't much of a race for the win at the moment from 3rd - 15th you have a quite a lot of cut and thrust racing going on. The cars look challenging to drive (albeit not as physical as some years) and while the new hybrid engines have been a bit of a disaster from a financial and political point of view within the sport (and the token system just exacerbates the problems) they are interesting to me from a tech point of view and I love seeing the engineering being on the bleeding edge. The failures at Spa aside Pirelli seem to have found their feet and the tyres seem to help keep the strategy varied and interesting. There are some interesting new drivers (Verstappen, Kvyat etc) mixed with some respected 'old' hands.
With regards the new venues I think some lessons have been learned from the yawnfest that was Valencia and this year at least Sochi seemed to provide an exciting playground, The Circuit of the Americas is a great circuit IMO and the drivers seem to enjoy it also.
With regards the new venues I think some lessons have been learned from the yawnfest that was Valencia and this year at least Sochi seemed to provide an exciting playground, The Circuit of the Americas is a great circuit IMO and the drivers seem to enjoy it also.
el stovey said:
Sure we have some dull tracks in places where nobody likes F1 but the big problem is the dominance of Mercedes and Rosberg's lack of challenge. If Rosberg could just lift his game or Hamilton could split up with his girlfriend, it could suddenly become a great season. Increasing testing or funding or changing rules etc just appears to result in Mercedes getting further ahead.
I agree though, it's the definitely the dullest season I've ever watched, and I never thought I'd get bored of watching a British driver winning races.
I think it very unfair to say the dominance of Mercedes is the problem, this is only their second season winning which is a lot less than Red Bull had previously and Ferrari before that. Rosberg may not be challenging as much as would be ideal, but at least he is allowed to if he gets close enough, the same couldn't be said for Webber and the various team mates of Schumacher (although Webber did try the odds were against him due to Marko's involvement).I agree though, it's the definitely the dullest season I've ever watched, and I never thought I'd get bored of watching a British driver winning races.
And Hamilton did split up with his girlfriend at the end of last year I think.
Not the dullest season I've watched by quite a long way, plenty of action in most races, just not necessarily at the front.
A change in the overall formula and business model is needed, however, to ensure the survival of F1 for the long term. At present Bernie isn't interested in that as the money men (including himself) need a quick return. Maybe the FIA are reasonably happy for F1 to implode as they may then be able to get control back.
suffolk009 said:
Sochi viewing figures compared to last year: BBC down 13%, Sky down 25%.
Any other business, the management would be seriously worried. F1 just keep playing the same tune.
There is the Rugby WC going on so will be some conflict with that. Any other business, the management would be seriously worried. F1 just keep playing the same tune.
I believe some races are up compared to last year. Some down. Is it really a surprise when we, as consumers, have so many options to occupy our times now?
danllama said:
SPS said:
Saw the F1 rewind program this morning and it makes you realize who far F1 has plummeted in just 10 years!!!!
Really enjoyed watching the last of the real drivers actually racing each other - proper racing tbh.
The reality is that they could let the cars run a "race" without actually having any drivers on board.
I started to watch this morning as both my wife and I do like Motorsport. She watched for about 20 mins and said that F1 was like watching paint dry and could we watch last weeks Super Bike racing that we had recorded instead, so we did all 3 hours of it - now she said that is proper racing!
Do you watch BTCC? If not, try that.Really enjoyed watching the last of the real drivers actually racing each other - proper racing tbh.
The reality is that they could let the cars run a "race" without actually having any drivers on board.
I started to watch this morning as both my wife and I do like Motorsport. She watched for about 20 mins and said that F1 was like watching paint dry and could we watch last weeks Super Bike racing that we had recorded instead, so we did all 3 hours of it - now she said that is proper racing!
Eric Mc said:
Derek Smith said:
Eric Mc said:
And Imola when I was there.
Argentina and Brazil and Japan are also foreign venues that have been very well supported.
Argentina and Brazil are a little different in that they have had some top class drivers. Japan has had some top engines. They've earned their races.Argentina and Brazil and Japan are also foreign venues that have been very well supported.
Autódromo José Carlos Pace
75 years FFS
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