Discussion
RYH64E said:
http://www.grandprix.com/ns/ns32494.html
Why would Mercedes not like it? Why wouldn't they be just as able to build such an engine as well, if not better, than the others.Article said:
The specifications now say the new engine will be a 2.5 litre V6 or smaller, with one or two turbochargers producing "greater than" 870 horse power.
The engine will have no limits on revs, engine durability or fuel flow, freedom in the area of the exhaust and no hybrid power.
And no doubt a fraction of the cost of the current units, what's not to like (unless you're Mercedes)?The engine will have no limits on revs, engine durability or fuel flow, freedom in the area of the exhaust and no hybrid power.
They've not had a bad chassis over the past two years either. Ask Williams, FI or Lotus.
Gaz. said:
Merc, Honda, Renault & Ferrari won't like it as they aren't allowed to build one, and have spent enormous sums on their current projects. With this engine the series will become GP1 with a spec engine.
I'd prefer a spec engine that run at >20k rpm and lasted to the end of a race than the complicated, expensive hybrid b
ks we've got today. Anyway, the plan for the current engines is that they eventually approach equivalence through diminishing returns from development, if the concept lasts long enough there'll be very little difference between the Mercedes/Ferrari/Honda/Renault units.I don't think anybody died during the merits of a cheaper engine the problem is having define the most expensive engine known to man you can't then turn around say no it's too expensive we don't want it anymore and Lisa manufacturers to hold you can for spending god knows how many million or sorry, hundreds of million dollars developing a white elephant.
at the end of the day the FIA have to put their hands up and say sorry because they bought this whole situation into existence to try and turn around and Force the hand of a manufacturers is only going to piss everybody off.
if I really want to pursue this they should offer to pick up the Tab for merc, Ferrari, renault and Hondas development budgets so at least they can get back to square one.
at the end of the day the FIA have to put their hands up and say sorry because they bought this whole situation into existence to try and turn around and Force the hand of a manufacturers is only going to piss everybody off.
if I really want to pursue this they should offer to pick up the Tab for merc, Ferrari, renault and Hondas development budgets so at least they can get back to square one.
Gaz. said:
I have a few questions:
What is the cost of the spec engine?
How can the FIA force this engine through the rulebook when the TWG & manufacturers need unanimous agreements?
Why a spec engine by one manufacturer that does not sell cars?
While I'm happy for an unlimited output unlimited life engine, this proposal will ensure that RBR and STR will finish 1-2-3-4 with team orders and No1 & No2 drivers every single weekend for 2017, 2018, 2019 & 2020 and F1 will go the way of WRC.
What would prevent McLaren, Sauber, Williams, Force India etc all opting for the cheaper, more powerful engine? If the FIA and CVC want to reduce the power of the manufacturers then a better, cheaper, non-manufacturer sourced engine would be a good way to do it, I think most fans would approve as well.What is the cost of the spec engine?
How can the FIA force this engine through the rulebook when the TWG & manufacturers need unanimous agreements?
Why a spec engine by one manufacturer that does not sell cars?
While I'm happy for an unlimited output unlimited life engine, this proposal will ensure that RBR and STR will finish 1-2-3-4 with team orders and No1 & No2 drivers every single weekend for 2017, 2018, 2019 & 2020 and F1 will go the way of WRC.
RYH64E said:
What would prevent McLaren, Sauber, Williams, Force India etc all opting for the cheaper, more powerful engine? If the FIA and CVC want to reduce the power of the manufacturers then a better, cheaper, non-manufacturer sourced engine would be a good way to do it, I think most fans would approve as well.
Except, if the manufacturers get the Hump and quit, we loose 3 teams.All this so that red bull get their way?
Why not just let the engine manufacturers develop what they've built?
These development tokens, why not just sell them? Everyone knows it's not a money issue on the part of the engine manufacturers (no matter what they protest-they came up with the idea!). Simply allow the engine suppliers to buy development tokens (say €5M each or whatever) and the money is spread evenly amongst the other teams.
My only caveats would be the leading engine manufacturer can't buy any tokens, only the suppliers below them and each engine manufacturer would nominate it's factory supported team (red bull for Renault, mclaren for honda etc) to represent their position.
These development tokens, why not just sell them? Everyone knows it's not a money issue on the part of the engine manufacturers (no matter what they protest-they came up with the idea!). Simply allow the engine suppliers to buy development tokens (say €5M each or whatever) and the money is spread evenly amongst the other teams.
My only caveats would be the leading engine manufacturer can't buy any tokens, only the suppliers below them and each engine manufacturer would nominate it's factory supported team (red bull for Renault, mclaren for honda etc) to represent their position.
The engines will be Cosworth units similar to what they used to build for Indycars so the engine will have the power, but here's the thing they'll be getting dropped into Saubers & Force India's etc which lets be honest even if they had the same spec engines as the factory cars they still couldn't get close to them.
So basically you'll have open class racing & Factory the same as you have in Moto GP (the satellite bikes only make the podium when the field self distructs) it won't hurt F1 as long as the racing is good & they can get them sounding great there won't be a problem.
So basically you'll have open class racing & Factory the same as you have in Moto GP (the satellite bikes only make the podium when the field self distructs) it won't hurt F1 as long as the racing is good & they can get them sounding great there won't be a problem.
Gaz. said:
London424 said:
RYH64E said:
Gaz. said:
Where did I say they wouldn't?
It's unlikely to be A Red Bull, STR 1234 every weekend if other teams adopt the same engines.The big question is, would Mclaren survive if Honda left? They have haemorrhaged sponsors over the last two seasons, next to no championship money for next year and the year after and still have WCC style expenses. Honda have paid them £100m a year to make up the shortfall.
Gaz. said:
London424 said:
I know it's a spec engine. My question was when you said about other teams adopting it. Are you talking about Merc/Ferrari buying this Spec engine or building their own?
They can't build their own, and Ferrari would never have someone else's engine in their car.Unless they equalise (which as we've seen is basically impossible) you run the risk of all teams with either better engines than Merc and Ferrari or even further behind.
ETA: just realised it was RHXXX that I was originally questionning.
Edited by London424 on Thursday 19th November 12:35
London424 said:
Gaz. said:
London424 said:
I know it's a spec engine. My question was when you said about other teams adopting it. Are you talking about Merc/Ferrari buying this Spec engine or building their own?
They can't build their own, and Ferrari would never have someone else's engine in their car.Unless they equalise (which as we've seen is basically impossible) you run the risk of all teams with either better engines than Merc and Ferrari or even further behind.
ETA: just realised it was RHXXX that I was originally questionning.
Edited by London424 on Thursday 19th November 12:35
They could also probably mount a legal challenge to the contract requiring them to stay until 2020, arguing that FIA/Bernie bringing in spec engines amounts to a unilateral change in the regulations that they didn't sign up for
London424 said:
Well exactly! So you don't think those two teams might be a bit annoyed that this cheap spec engine could be more powerful than the one set out in the regs that they HAVE to adhere to?
Unless they equalise (which as we've seen is basically impossible) you run the risk of all teams with either better engines than Merc and Ferrari or even further behind.
ETA: just realised it was RHXXX that I was originally questionning.
As ever, I expect that there are underlying issues. The FIA and Bernie want the manufacturers, mainly Mercedes, to supply any team with their engines at a vastly subsidised rate. Refusing to supply Red Bull has ruffled a few feathers, and the cost of engines is causing problems for the smaller teams. I'd guess that if Mercedes back down, supplied Red Bull and slashed their prices, the issue of alternatives engines will fade away. There are many people, myself included, who don't really want to see the manufacturers in F1 at all (except Ferrari), so if Mercedes, Honda and Renault got really annoyed and pulled out, I suspect Bernie and others would be pleased.Unless they equalise (which as we've seen is basically impossible) you run the risk of all teams with either better engines than Merc and Ferrari or even further behind.
ETA: just realised it was RHXXX that I was originally questionning.
Edited by London424 on Thursday 19th November 12:35
Gaz. said:
Why should Ferrari, Mercedes, Reanult or Honda supply engines at a loss? If FOM want them to supply these engines at a loss then FOM should make up the difference.
Ferrari simply won't have someone else's engine in their car, nor would they be prepared to be 5 seconds off the pace alone with this 1.6T, nor would they give away $25m to three teams for the next 5 years, despite already subsidising Sauber & Manor.
I can't see Bernie being pleased at losing 8 cars off the grid but I bet the ACO are rubbing their hands together.
well said.Ferrari simply won't have someone else's engine in their car, nor would they be prepared to be 5 seconds off the pace alone with this 1.6T, nor would they give away $25m to three teams for the next 5 years, despite already subsidising Sauber & Manor.
I can't see Bernie being pleased at losing 8 cars off the grid but I bet the ACO are rubbing their hands together.
FIA spec'ed these stupidly expensive PU's, and said the rules were fixed till at least 2017, ie, so they are valid for at least 4 years.
Merc/Ferrari/Renault/Honda then commit billions to R&D only for the FIA to then try and cut their leggs off?
wake up to commercial reality.
I can see Ferrari and merc jointly suing the FIA for their costs if this progresses.
The FIA are only fishing for expressions of interest.
They now know they cocked up (as usual) by not defining a customer price. This meant that Mercedes went thermo-nuclear on spend. They claim they already lose money on every PU they sell.
The end game is a reduction to $15million per supply package. How they get there is just interesting.
They now know they cocked up (as usual) by not defining a customer price. This meant that Mercedes went thermo-nuclear on spend. They claim they already lose money on every PU they sell.
The end game is a reduction to $15million per supply package. How they get there is just interesting.
rdjohn said:
The FIA are only fishing for expressions of interest.
They now know they cocked up (as usual) by not defining a customer price. This meant that Mercedes went thermo-nuclear on spend. They claim they already lose money on every PU they sell.
The end game is a reduction to $15million per supply package. How they get there is just interesting.
that's hardly a claim, it's simple fact.They now know they cocked up (as usual) by not defining a customer price. This meant that Mercedes went thermo-nuclear on spend. They claim they already lose money on every PU they sell.
The end game is a reduction to $15million per supply package. How they get there is just interesting.
the money they have spent will never be recovered, (they knew this from day 1), they did not expect to write it all off though.
it's reported the Merc contract is the cheapest out there (at some £26m according to Joe https://joesaward.wordpress.com/2014/06/25/the-ono...
at that level, it's blatantly obvious they were loosing money.
There is a cost in producing the first works engine that includes the R&D costs.
Then there is a manufacturing and run cost for the 8 engines needed to supply a customer for a season. No R&D costs need to be included in that cost - it has already been spent and written off.
Unfortunately no one knows the real cost. Cristian Sylt ( I know) reckons that an 8 engine deal for a driver in Indy is $1million from Illien. I know the manufacturing costs will be higher for the Hybrid, but it is this gap that needs to be negotiated.
Then there is a manufacturing and run cost for the 8 engines needed to supply a customer for a season. No R&D costs need to be included in that cost - it has already been spent and written off.
Unfortunately no one knows the real cost. Cristian Sylt ( I know) reckons that an 8 engine deal for a driver in Indy is $1million from Illien. I know the manufacturing costs will be higher for the Hybrid, but it is this gap that needs to be negotiated.
rdjohn said:
There is a cost in producing the first works engine that includes the R&D costs.
Then there is a manufacturing and run cost for the 8 engines needed to supply a customer for a season. No R&D costs need to be included in that cost - it has already been spent and written off.
Unfortunately no one knows the real cost. Cristian Sylt ( I know) reckons that an 8 engine deal for a driver in Indy is $1million from Illien. I know the manufacturing costs will be higher for the Hybrid, but it is this gap that needs to be negotiated.
that's ignoring the small matter on developments have not stopped, the costs of the embedded staff (in customer teams), etc etc.Then there is a manufacturing and run cost for the 8 engines needed to supply a customer for a season. No R&D costs need to be included in that cost - it has already been spent and written off.
Unfortunately no one knows the real cost. Cristian Sylt ( I know) reckons that an 8 engine deal for a driver in Indy is $1million from Illien. I know the manufacturing costs will be higher for the Hybrid, but it is this gap that needs to be negotiated.
Indy car engines are cheap as chips in comparison, fixed specification, no development, a simple manufacturing job.
Gaz. said:
RYH64E said:
As ever, I expect that there are underlying issues. The FIA and Bernie want the manufacturers, mainly Mercedes, to supply any team with their engines at a vastly subsidised rate. Refusing to supply Red Bull has ruffled a few feathers, and the cost of engines is causing problems for the smaller teams. I'd guess that if Mercedes back down, supplied Red Bull and slashed their prices, the issue of alternatives engines will fade away. There are many people, myself included, who don't really want to see the manufacturers in F1 at all (except Ferrari), so if Mercedes, Honda and Renault got really annoyed and pulled out, I suspect Bernie and others would be pleased.
Why should Ferrari, Mercedes, Reanult or Honda supply engines at a loss? If FOM want them to supply these engines at a loss then FOM should make up the difference.Ferrari simply won't have someone else's engine in their car, nor would they be prepared to be 5 seconds off the pace alone with this 1.6T, nor would they give away $25m to three teams for the next 5 years, despite already subsidising Sauber & Manor.
I can't see Bernie being pleased at losing 8 cars off the grid but I bet the ACO are rubbing their hands together.
F1 won't lose three teams by allowing a spec engine, Mercedes might pull out but if the costs come down another owner will pick up the pieces, maybe Brawn will come back and have another go... Ferrari won't go anywhere, they might huff and puff but they're there for the long term, and they're not particularly into hybrids anyway. Who knows, a return to proper, >20k rpm, unrestricted, racing engines might even rekindle fans interest in the sport, I'm certainly not the only person who detests the current power units.
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