Discussion
RYH64E said:
F1 won't lose three teams by allowing a spec engine, Mercedes might pull out but if the costs come down another owner will pick up the pieces, maybe Brawn will come back and have another go... Ferrari won't go anywhere, they might huff and puff but they're there for the long term, and they're not particularly into hybrids anyway. Who knows, a return to proper, >20k rpm, unrestricted, racing engines might even rekindle fans interest in the sport, I'm certainly not the only person who detests the current power units.
disagree...Ferrari will never run a car without their own engine.
Merc won't either, and it's fanciful to think Brawn would buy the team back.
Renault would certainly not carry on, hell, they have yet to actually buy Lotus back, and of that does not happen, Lotus are goners.
How many teams can F1 afford to lose?
Yes, this is one big game, but being blunt, the FIA can't win this one.
link said:
The engine will have no limits on revs, engine durability or fuel flow, freedom in the area of the exhaust and no hybrid power
So all this b
ks we were told a couple of years back about F1 having to be 'green' and 'relevant' (which was the reasoning for these st engines) is now actually proven to be a lie?chonok said:
So all this bks we were told a couple of years back about F1 having to be 'green' and 'relevant' (which was the reasoning for these st engines) is now actually proven to be a lie?
I think a lot of people knew it was a lie when these PUs were first dreamt up. ks we were told a couple of years back about F1 having to be 'green' and 'relevant' (which was the reasoning for these st engines) is now actually proven to be a lie?Technology of any race engine is pretty much irrelevant to road car technology. Race engines are about maximum power at full throttle, if you want to save fuel, you just don't open the throttle quite as wide. These mega cost PU's try to offset that with the Hybrid element, but other than the name, they have little in common with the low-volume La Ferrari which has much more in common with a humble Preus.
Only 6 manufacturers have become involved in producing Hybrid race engines. BMW have produced the creditable i8 without any hybrid race program.
The fuel and oil specification and costs associated with these PUs again have no relevance to what we can afford to put in our road cars and still meet emission standards.
The technology is pretty incredible in what has been achieved, but all this development is headed into a cul-de-sac.
Formula 1 needs to be affordable, so that new entrants can start-up more easily, more fans can afford to watch, either at a circuit, or on public TV, more circuits need to be able to host a race without fear of imminent bankruptcy.
The whole sport is in a financial mess and these PUs only add to it.
rdjohn said:
Formula 1 needs to be affordable, so that new entrants can start-up more easily, more fans can afford to watch, either at a circuit, or on public TV, more circuits need to be able to host a race without fear of imminent bankruptcy.
The whole sport is in a financial mess and these PUs only add to it.
Only one of those points has anything to do with the cost for the competitors. Fans affordability at track or TV and circuits hosting are costs related to Bernie, not the teams. Considering Silverstone probably pay roughly the same amount to host the GP as Williams pay for 8 engines during the year I think I know who is getting the worst deal.The whole sport is in a financial mess and these PUs only add to it.
It seems Cosworth aren't interested in tendering
http://www.motorsport.com/f1/news/cosworth-rules-o...
http://www.motorsport.com/f1/news/cosworth-rules-o...
Scuffers said:
that's ignoring the small matter on developments have not stopped, the costs of the embedded staff (in customer teams), etc etc.
Indy car engines are cheap as chips in comparison, fixed specification, no development, a simple manufacturing job.
Very true if the FIA limited these engines to 8 per year I think they'd easily do this, they already make the Horsepower, they're used to running harder & longer than an F1 Engine so reliability won't be an issue I'm sure Cosworth has a few sitting around.Indy car engines are cheap as chips in comparison, fixed specification, no development, a simple manufacturing job.
This would mean the small teams can race for less they won't be beating the Factory teams but they'll be around 15-20 million better off which for teams like Manor will be huge.
They do something similar in Moto GP and it's not a problem.
ZX10R NIN said:
Very true if the FIA limited these engines to 8 per year I think they'd easily do this, they already make the Horsepower, they're used to running harder & longer than an F1 Engine so reliability won't be an issue I'm sure Cosworth has a few sitting around.
This would mean the small teams can race for less they won't be beating the Factory teams but they'll be around 15-20 million better off which for teams like Manor will be huge.
They do something similar in Moto GP and it's not a problem.
err. no they don't, and they have declined to even bid.This would mean the small teams can race for less they won't be beating the Factory teams but they'll be around 15-20 million better off which for teams like Manor will be huge.
They do something similar in Moto GP and it's not a problem.
Cosworth said:
The key issue is that Cosworth would have to start from scratch, as it does not have an engine which could be used as a starting point for an F1 V6 project
this line really sums up the issue:Cosworth said:
We took a look at it and looked at who the potential customers would be, Cosworth co-owner Kevin Kalkhoven told Motorsport.com.
"And the answer is essentially Red Bull, as they don't have a long-term engine contract"
ie. they realise it's a total non-starter and CBA to get involved in the current Red-Bull bulls"And the answer is essentially Red Bull, as they don't have a long-term engine contract"
t.It looks like AER/Illien backed by Red Bull are in.
http://www.aerltd.com/aer-registers-interest-with-...
No surprise there really. I guess they will be the only contender.
http://www.aerltd.com/aer-registers-interest-with-...
No surprise there really. I guess they will be the only contender.
MartG said:
I agree - If these spec engines do come in, what's the point in staying ? Could also be the reason why Renault are taking so long to buy Lotus
I suspect there's something more to the Lotus/Renault deal holdup. Beyond the apparent problem of Bernie coughing-up some historic money.Mecachrome announced their bid for the 2017 engine
http://www.motorsport.com/f1/news/exclusive-mecach...
http://www.motorsport.com/f1/news/exclusive-mecach...
Back on one of the engine threads people were questioning whether F1 teams would be able to get engines if the manufacturers were to take their bat home, I think that question has been answered. Cosworth, AER,Mecachrome and Ilmor could supply engines as independents (Cosworth have said no if it's just Red Bull, not if other teams were involved), and Ferrari I'm sure would still make their own. So F1 doesn't need the car manufacturers, they could easily obtain a supply of suitable engines if needed, maybe not this hybrid power unit nonsnense, but that's no loss imo.
RYH64E said:
Back on one of the engine threads people were questioning whether F1 teams would be able to get engines if the manufacturers were to take their bat home, I think that question has been answered. Cosworth, AER,Mecachrome and Ilmor could supply engines as independents (Cosworth have said no if it's just Red Bull, not if other teams were involved), and Ferrari I'm sure would still make their own. So F1 doesn't need the car manufacturers, they could easily obtain a supply of suitable engines if needed, maybe not this hybrid power unit nonsnense, but that's no loss imo.
yes, BUT!Problem is it costs money to develop any engine, and no commercial organisation is going to do this with the risk of the FIA moving the goal-posts half-way though your payback period - as in what they are doing now to the hybrid PU's.
Say Cosworth spent just £20M on development costs, how many years/engines would this need to be recovered over?
Scuffers said:
yes, BUT!
Problem is it costs money to develop any engine, and no commercial organisation is going to do this with the risk of the FIA moving the goal-posts half-way though your payback period - as in what they are doing now to the hybrid PU's.
Say Cosworth spent just £20M on development costs, how many years/engines would this need to be recovered over?
Ilmor, Mecachrome and AER appear to be interested even with manufacturer involvement, if the manufacturers left surely it would be a significantly more attractive proposition? Nobody is asking them to do it for free, £10m per team pr season would be significantly cheaper than the current engines, and that's still a lot of money.Problem is it costs money to develop any engine, and no commercial organisation is going to do this with the risk of the FIA moving the goal-posts half-way though your payback period - as in what they are doing now to the hybrid PU's.
Say Cosworth spent just £20M on development costs, how many years/engines would this need to be recovered over?
RYH64E said:
Ilmor, Mecachrome and AER appear to be interested even with manufacturer involvement, if the manufacturers left surely it would be a significantly more attractive proposition? Nobody is asking them to do it for free, £10m per team pr season would be significantly cheaper than the current engines, and that's still a lot of money.
yes, but what about the development costs?are you suggesting they load the prices so that's paid off in year one?
Scuffers said:
yes, but what about the development costs?
are you suggesting they load the prices so that's paid off in year one?
How are they proposing to write of the development costs for the current engine? There's only one team interested so far.are you suggesting they load the prices so that's paid off in year one?
If you cut out all the hybrid b
ks the development costs will be relatively modest in F1 terms, 800-900bhp and >20k rpm shouldn't be that expensive.Gassing Station | Formula 1 | Top of Page | What's New | My Stuff