Is Jenson Button the best driver in F1?

[RobM77]

DanielSan said:

37chevy said:

DanielSan said:

And how many other rookies have been given a championship contending car from day 1 of their career? Even Alonso started in a Minard...

How many rookies have matched their experienced world championship winning teammates from day 1 of their career?! I think hamiltons record in the junior formula proved he deserved the seat and he made sure plonkers like you don't have a leg to stand on with that argument by his record in his rookie year:-)

Do you always talk to people you don't know like that? Or just when you're behind your keyboard?

Bell end.

Quite! Welcome to Pistonheads

Ironically and rather amusingly, the exact same argument can be used against 37Chevy though, because Button's junior formulae record was actually better than Hamilton's...

[Smollet]

RobM77 said:

DanielSan said:

37chevy said:

DanielSan said:

And how many other rookies have been given a championship contending car from day 1 of their career? Even Alonso started in a Minard...

How many rookies have matched their experienced world championship winning teammates from day 1 of their career?! I think hamiltons record in the junior formula proved he deserved the seat and he made sure plonkers like you don't have a leg to stand on with that argument by his record in his rookie year:-)

Do you always talk to people you don't know like that? Or just when you're behind your keyboard?

Bell end.

Quite! Welcome to Pistonheads

I think after over 10500 posts he might have got used it it by now

[Vocal Minority]

What is it about Button and Hamilton that makes the fking claws come out round here? Especially if someone dare insinuate that anyone is better than Hamilton, it gets real personal, real fast.

[DanielSan]

Smollet said:

I think after over 10500 posts he might have got used it it by now

I keep trying to ignore my post count, makes me realise how much of my time is killed/wasted browsing and commenting on here

[RobM77]

DanielSan said:

Smollet said:

I think after over 10500 posts he might have got used it it by now

I keep trying to ignore my post count, makes me realise how much of my time is killed/wasted browsing and commenting on here

Now I feel prett bad!

Regarding the Hamilton defensiveness, a friend of mine says that about this sub-forum too (it's my first time here). A bit like Ford over on General Gassing I guess; dare to criticise and everyone jumps on you.

[37chevy]

DanielSan said:

Do you always talk to people you don't know like that? Or just when you're behind your keyboard?

Bell end.

No I'm usually very polite but I have an objection to the anti Hamilton/ we must worship vettel and others vibe on this forum.......

....lets put it like this you and others tend to have a negative view on Hamilton and put down his achievements and qualify your statements with silly things like 'yeh but he started his career at the top'. Instead of making stupid comments....try to qualify your statement...and think about how he got there and how well he did in his first year

And before the other morons jump on this and call me a ham fan...yes I am, but I'm a massive fan of other drivers too...I just don't see why they put Lewis down all the time

[37chevy]

RobM77 said:

Quite! Welcome to Pistonheads

Ironically and rather amusingly, the exact same argument can be used against 37Chevy though, because Button's junior formulae record was actually better than Hamilton's...

errrrr no it wasn't! Hamilton won Renault, f3 and gp2 championships....tell me what junior championships button won again?

[Moominator]

Let's not forget the bloke who cut corners, drove into others cars to win title(s), launch control found on car etc and etc? LOTS of fawning fans over him yet what has Hamilton done wrong (on that level) yet he gets lots of detractors. My own mate says 'anyone can win titles in his car'. Really? I don't remember any title winner winning in a average or dog of a car. So why rubbish Hamilton's THREE titles?

I've noticed this over the years, Brits love to hate Brits when they are winining. Or complain about them why?

Back during Damon Hills time in F1- he had the same a cusations about its the car, etc.

[RobM77]

37chevy said:

RobM77 said:

Quite! Welcome to Pistonheads

Ironically and rather amusingly, the exact same argument can be used against 37Chevy though, because Button's junior formulae record was actually better than Hamilton's...

errrrr no it wasn't! Hamilton won Renault, f3 and gp2 championships....tell me what junior championships button won again?

That's the whole point, JB was so talented he rocketed straight into F1 in only his third season of car racing: in his 1st season he won FF & the Festival and in his 2nd season he was 3rd in British F3, then straight to F1 on merit after a shoot-out at Williams. Lewis in comparison spent nearly three times longer in lower formulae, with 5½ years comprising of: 5th in FR Winter in '01, then 3rd in FR in '02, then 1st in FR, 5th in F3 Euro, 1st in F3 Euro and finally a 1st in GP2 before moving to F1. You could argue that being supported by McLaren he was encouraged to serve a more rigorous apprenticeship, but it's definitely not right to say that LH had a better early career record than JB. That's because in JB's third year he was driving in F1 having won one car championship and come third in another, whereas LH at the same point, even if we give LH credit by discounting his first part season in FRW, had won one championship, come third in another (so identical to JB) but was racing in F3, several steps lower than JB.

I'm not saying that one driver is better than the other; as I stated earlier I'm just an amateur racer and armchair watcher of F1 and therefore I don't think it's right or possible for me to judge anyone in F1. They're clearly both extremely talented drivers and I love watching them both do well. I just wanted to point out some facts that are being conveniently ignored, probably to prove already existing preferences...

[Moominator]

Maybe Lewis would have won even more if he'd have been given equal treatment I.e break into F1 on merit.

[37chevy]

RobM77 said:

That's the whole point, JB was so talented he rocketed straight into F1 in only his third season of car racing: in his 1st season he won FF & the Festival and in his 2nd season he was 3rd in British F3, then straight to F1 on merit after a shoot-out at Williams. Lewis in comparison spent nearly three times longer in lower formulae, with 5½ years comprising of: 5th in FR Winter in '01, then 3rd in FR in '02, then 1st in FR, 5th in F3 Euro, 1st in F3 Euro and finally a 1st in GP2 before moving to F1. You could argue that being supported by McLaren he was encouraged to serve a more rigorous apprenticeship, but it's definitely not right to say that LH had a better early career record than JB. That's because in JB's third year he was driving in F1 having won one car championship and come third in another, whereas LH at the same point, even if we give LH credit by discounting his first part season in FRW, had won one championship, come third in another (so identical to JB) but was racing in F3, several steps lower than JB.

I'm not saying that one driver is better than the other; as I stated earlier I'm just an amateur racer and armchair watcher of F1 and therefore I don't think it's right or possible for me to judge anyone in F1. They're clearly both extremely talented drivers and I love watching them both do well. I just wanted to point out some facts that are being conveniently ignored, probably to prove already existing preferences...

But that makes your earlier statement incorrect...you stated jensons earlier career was better than hamiltons....that's simply not true! Yes jenson got to f1 faster than Lewis....but then so have lots of other drivers....like you say Lewis served a longer apprentaship and won in every championship he competed in....

...by those facts Lewis had a better earlier career and jenson won in an X factor style competition to get into f1....surely then Lewis is more deserving of his seat in f1...not the other way around like many claim (not yourself I might add)

Like you say though....there's no reason to compare...many do or use facts and figures blindly to support their own ideas....I just merely use the other side to throw their preconceived ideas back at them to give a balanced view

The fact is they are both great drivers, and the only thing that counts in the end is the win count...doesn't matter what cat/team your in, how you got there...it's about beating everyone else out on track

[deadslow]

37chevy said:

RobM77 said:

That's the whole point, JB was so talented he rocketed straight into F1 in only his third season of car racing: in his 1st season he won FF & the Festival and in his 2nd season he was 3rd in British F3, then straight to F1 on merit after a shoot-out at Williams. Lewis in comparison spent nearly three times longer in lower formulae, with 5½ years comprising of: 5th in FR Winter in '01, then 3rd in FR in '02, then 1st in FR, 5th in F3 Euro, 1st in F3 Euro and finally a 1st in GP2 before moving to F1. You could argue that being supported by McLaren he was encouraged to serve a more rigorous apprenticeship, but it's definitely not right to say that LH had a better early career record than JB. That's because in JB's third year he was driving in F1 having won one car championship and come third in another, whereas LH at the same point, even if we give LH credit by discounting his first part season in FRW, had won one championship, come third in another (so identical to JB) but was racing in F3, several steps lower than JB.

I'm not saying that one driver is better than the other; as I stated earlier I'm just an amateur racer and armchair watcher of F1 and therefore I don't think it's right or possible for me to judge anyone in F1. They're clearly both extremely talented drivers and I love watching them both do well. I just wanted to point out some facts that are being conveniently ignored, probably to prove already existing preferences...

But that makes your earlier statement incorrect...you stated jensons earlier career was better than hamiltons....that's simply not true! Yes jenson got to f1 faster than Lewis....but then so have lots of other drivers....like you say Lewis served a longer apprentaship and won in every championship he competed in....

...by those facts Lewis had a better earlier career and jenson won in an X factor style competition to get into f1....surely then Lewis is more deserving of his seat in f1...not the other way around like many claim (not yourself I might add)

Like you say though....there's no reason to compare...many do or use facts and figures blindly to support their own ideas....I just merely use the other side to throw their preconceived ideas back at them to give a balanced view

The fact is they are both great drivers, and the only thing that counts in the end is the win count...doesn't matter what cat/team your in, how you got there...it's about beating everyone else out on track

Thanks for adding that balance

watch you don't spaff yourself to death (genuine health warning, for the sake of balance )

[Moominator]

I never knew Britney had so many PH login/accounts. Nico please, stop having a sneaky go at insightful F1 fans on pistonheads

[37chevy]

deadslow said:

Thanks for adding that balance

watch you don't spaff yourself to death (genuine health warning, for the sake of balance )

Lmfao!!!!!! Read the last paragraph...better than most of the spaff sprouted on this forum....it's either we love hammy or hate hammy....Christ might as well be America and Russia propaganda machines!

[SeeFive]

Smollet said:

SeeFive said:

Keeping in with all of the ifs and buts, if Vettel had been in the Brawn, I am afraid that would have been another WDC that JB missed. Vettel gave him a run for that championship as you said, but for the majority of the season which I watched, in inferior machinery. Yes, all ifs and buts, and JB did a good job that year, but nothing stellar. So many others would have also put Rubens in his place, but then if my uncle was a woman he'd be my auntie.

So the actual reality is that he proved that year he was better than Rubens. But I can think of half a dozen drivers that I could say the same about in that year. He is likeable and competent but still not the best in the field that or any other year he has competed IMO. We will continue to have a different opinion.

I seem to recall Barrichello putting Schumacher in his place a few times. In line with your ifs and buts line of thinking if Button had been in a RBR he'd have won another title likewise with MB as he's beaten Hamilton but he wasn't. You can twist it anyway you like but he's a WDC which in the second half of the year he was probably in the 4th fastest car. You seem to have forgotten he came 3rd in 2004 when the only drivers that beat him were wait for it Schumacher and Barrichello and they had a very dominant Ferrari which apart from the brilliance of Brawn and Todt was courtesy of of the FIA and Bridgestone.

Which still makes no difference to my opinion on Barrichello whatsoever. I am no fan of Vettel any more than I am of the other top drivers in F1, but I simply cannot see a way that JB would beat Vettel or 4 or 5 of the drivers in the same car whilst he has been in F1 without failures corrupting the statistics.

I do not base my opinion on what his stats say, because they do not tell the full story. I also tend to agree with those on here that say he can't develop a car. Certainly going back to the days of BAR and Honda, I saw him get out of the car so many times and say "I don't know what is wrong with the car, it is rubbish", which I didn't see as good feedback to an engineer at the time, and sure enough his cars did not really improve.

He may well have improved in that aspect with experience, making him a more complete driver, but others just seem to have a more natural talent to feed back useful information to improve a car which Jenson doesn't - and given that he seems not to be able to drive around a problem in the same way that a great driver would, that is a major disadvantage to him.

So forget the stats. According to the stats, Maldonado is a very unlucky driver having so many DNFs if you can't remember that he forgot to use his Armco repellent most races.

[angrymoby]

Both great drivers (& i know which one i'd rather got to the pub with) but...

last year one took a pay cut to be in a car at the back of the grid ...the other got a pay rise even though he was already in the best car on the grid. Says it all really.

[RobM77]

angrymoby said:

Both great drivers (& i know which one i'd rather got to the pub with) but...

last year one took a pay cut to be in a car at the back of the grid ...the other got a pay rise even though he was already in the best car on the grid. Says it all really.

That's not entirely true either - McLaren came fifth in constructors' championship in 2014 with Mercedes power. Their woes didn't start until 2015 with the new Honda engine. Nobody had predicted Honda's 2015 performance when Button signed his contract.

[BarbaricAvatar]

RobM77 said:

angrymoby said:

Both great drivers (& i know which one i'd rather got to the pub with) but...

last year one took a pay cut to be in a car at the back of the grid ...the other got a pay rise even though he was already in the best car on the grid. Says it all really.

That's not entirely true either - McLaren came fifth in constructors' championship in 2014 with Mercedes power. Their woes didn't start until 2015 with the new Honda engine. Nobody had predicted Honda's 2015 performance when Button signed his contract.

Really?! I would say their woes started in 2013 when their car still had the best engine but failed to win a single race. The highlights being one 4th and two 5th's. That was a bad season, and 2014 would've been even worse were it not for the lucky podium they got at rnd 1.
They've been on the decline for a few years now, it's just the slip from 5th to 9th was more prominent than the slip from 3rd to 5th.
They'll be lucky if they can get back to 5th this year.

[angrymoby]

RobM77 said:

angrymoby said:

Both great drivers (& i know which one i'd rather got to the pub with) but...

last year one took a pay cut to be in a car at the back of the grid ...the other got a pay rise even though he was already in the best car on the grid. Says it all really.

That's not entirely true either - McLaren came fifth in constructors' championship in 2014 with Mercedes power. Their woes didn't start until 2015 with the new Honda engine. Nobody had predicted Honda's 2015 performance when Button signed his contract.

Every realist knew McL were going to go backwards from their midfield position in 2014- it was just a question of how much.

Plus, he re-signed for 2016 ...when Ferrari could have easily come in & taken him onboard

Edited by angrymoby on Wednesday 13th January 10:44

[RobM77]

BarbaricAvatar said:

RobM77 said:

angrymoby said:

Both great drivers (& i know which one i'd rather got to the pub with) but...

last year one took a pay cut to be in a car at the back of the grid ...the other got a pay rise even though he was already in the best car on the grid. Says it all really.

That's not entirely true either - McLaren came fifth in constructors' championship in 2014 with Mercedes power. Their woes didn't start until 2015 with the new Honda engine. Nobody had predicted Honda's 2015 performance when Button signed his contract.

Really?! I would say their woes started in 2013 when their car still had the best engine but failed to win a single race. The highlights being one 4th and two 5th's. That was a bad season, and 2014 would've been even worse were it not for the lucky podium they got at rnd 1.
They've been on the decline for a few years now, it's just the slip from 5th to 9th was more prominent than the slip from 3rd to 5th.
They'll be lucky if they can get back to 5th this year.

I agree with you, their woes started then. I was responding to the suggestion that Button accepted a drive in a car at the back of the grid. That's not true; McLaren may have been struggling in '13 and '14, but they weren't at the back of the grid!