Is Jenson Button the best driver in F1?

[Scuffers]

johneturbo said:

btcc123 said:

I think you have that about right but would put JB above Nico.

As the OP said JB has out-scored Fernando Alonso by 45%,the first time that Alonso has been beated by a team mate.Also remember at McLaren JB outscored Lewis during the three seasons they were together.

Didn't Hamilton beat Alonso is 2008?

yes, and whilst button did out-point Lewis, you need to look closer at the season results, lot of DNF's involved (which can be argued are driver related too I guess).

[London424]

Scuffers said:

johneturbo said:

btcc123 said:

I think you have that about right but would put JB above Nico.

As the OP said JB has out-scored Fernando Alonso by 45%,the first time that Alonso has been beated by a team mate.Also remember at McLaren JB outscored Lewis during the three seasons they were together.

Didn't Hamilton beat Alonso is 2008?

yes, and whilst button did out-point Lewis, you need to look closer at the season results, lot of DNF's involved (which can be argued are driver related too I guess).

Not to also forget that in seasons it was 2-1 to Lewis. Who really cares about cumulative points?

[thegreenhell]

johneturbo said:

btcc123 said:

I think you have that about right but would put JB above Nico.

As the OP said JB has out-scored Fernando Alonso by 45%,the first time that Alonso has been beated by a team mate.Also remember at McLaren JB outscored Lewis during the three seasons they were together.

Didn't Hamilton beat Alonso is 2007?

They were equal on points, with Hamilton ahead on count-back of results (same points total, same win total, HAM 5-4 ALO on 2nd place finishes). By that same logic Alonso was also 'beaten' by Tarso Marques as team mates at Minardi in 2001.

[Adam Ansel]

Button has always scored more points than his team mate, including Alonso and Hamilton. He tends to make up places every race, especially in the first lap. He tends to bring the car home unless suffering mechanical problems. In changeable condition he is just amazing.

[Smollet]

johneturbo said:

Didn't Hamilton beat Alonso is 2007?

Nope. Tied on points and wins IIRC.

[RobM77]

Personally I always find it extremely hard to judge how drivers stack up. Firstly there's the obvious differences in cars/teams, but even within a team you can get differences in the resources available to each driver and how they gel with their race engineer and mechanics, which of course changes depending on who's the number one driver, how each driver is doing in the championship, how much money they're bringing in etc. Finally of course, there's no one single metric of 'good' in a driver, you get good with certain types of cars, good in wet, good in dry, good in traffic, good at overtaking, good at slow circuits, fast circuits etc. Also, you have good over a single lap, and good over an average of a grand prix distance (i.e. looking after your tyres and the car). Finally, you also have drivers who are highly technical and good at setting up a car, and drivers who mainly just concentrate on the driving and aren't as good with the setup side of things. If I had to try and resolve all of the above though with what I've seen of Jenson Button (which I'm well aware is a small fraction of his racing career), I'd say he's certainly one of the very best driver's currently in F1, and in fact during any year of his F1 career - top five for sure. He's my favourite driver, but that's another thing entirely

One thing I'm very aware of though from reading Pistonheads is how it's possible to trawl through results and make out that any driver is crap or brilliant. Reaching a neutral consensus seems to be pretty rare here, and I realise that despite being all too aware of this tendency towards unfairness I might be guilty of it as well, because Button is my favourite driver, so I'm going to have a bias when looking at results.

[RobM77]

By the way, this thread made me look back over his results F1 and pre-F1 and his early career was quite extraordinary:

Wikipedia said:

he began karting at the age of eight, after his father bought him his first kart, and made an extraordinarily successful start. In 1989, aged nine, he came first in the British Super Prix.[8] He won all 34 races of the 1991 British Cadet Kart Championship, along with the title.[9] Further successes followed, including three triumphs in the British Open Kart Championship. In 1997, he won the Ayrton Senna Memorial Cup, and also became the youngest driver ever to win the European Super A Championship.[8]

Aged 18, Button moved into car racing, winning the British Formula Ford Championship with Haywood Racing; he also triumphed in the Formula Ford Festival at Brands Hatch.[10]

That karting success if quite remarkable - to win the British Super Prix in your second year of karting at the age of 9, and then two years later to win all 34 races of a national championship, is astonishing. The above also seems to imply that he won his first season of Formula Ford and the Festival races, which is also no mean feat.

[Hamsterdam]

HustleRussell said:

...because he has out-scored Fernando Alonso by 45%

who missed the first race of the season

[bakerstreet]

Hes certainly up there with the best out there.

However, I've never been convinced he has the killer instinct to make that life or death move on the last lap.

Hes in it for the money now. I can't see that car improving next year. They might move higher up the table from where they are now, but I'm fairly convinced they won't be challenging for wins.

What I don't understand is why Alonso is paid the money he is for such poor results. Rumours suggest that JB is on half Alonso's salary!

[johneturbo]

Smollet said:

Nope. Tied on points and wins IIRC.

So if Kimi hadn't pipped them to the 2007 title, Hamilton and Alonso would of had to share the title then?

[RobM77]

bakerstreet said:

Hes in it for the money now.

That's a possibility, but I'm not sure he's said anything to hint at that has he? It remains just a guess. Personally I would put forward another guess (and that's all it is of course - a guess) that perhaps he just loves Formula One? I would also guess that after this long in the game nobody's doubting his immense pace and I'd hope that in some small way, whilst he'd far rather be up the front, it's been an interesting technical exercise developing a new car, especially with someone of Alonso's ability alongside him and the engineering talent base that McLaren clearly have. Of course though, I sincerely hope that McLaren find some pace for next year and we get to see the likes of Button and Alonso racing at the front again, as both are very good drivers to watch and they both also deserve it.

[suffolk009]

bakerstreet said:

What I don't understand is why Alonso is paid the money he is for such poor results. Rumours suggest that JB is on half Alonso's salary!

My understanding is that Honda wanted Alonso, and they are paying his salary.

Rumour is JB was on £10m in 2015, £15m in 2016 (says the internet).

[btcc123]

Apparently McLaren have a very good deal with Honda as they pay for all everything to do with the power unit,pay half of both drivers wages and the icing on the cake give McLaren 100 million Euros a season.

[Vocal Minority]

RobM77 said:

The above also seems to imply that he won his first season of Formula Ford and the Festival races, which is also no mean feat.

He did indeed - had a very good season. He was third in British F3 the year after I believe

[swisstoni]

Adam Ansel said:

Button has always scored more points than his team mate, including Alonso and Hamilton. He tends to make up places every race, especially in the first lap. He tends to bring the car home unless suffering mechanical problems. In changeable condition he is just amazing.

I think this is fair. He is a very safe pair of hands. He's not the mercurial genius but he will most likely beat that kind of guy over a season because they are more likely to bin it or make a poor decision or suffer some kind of psychological issue.

[SeeFive]

No, he is not.

[swisstoni]

SeeFive said:

No, he is not.

Ok, that's a well reasoned and persuasive point.

[angrymoby]

Well, this thread has shown me that there is also now a 'cumulative point championship' also going on

...& that the count back system is also now null & void

Can someone inform FOM/FIA about these changes ...just so everyone knows, rather than it just being a fantasy in the heads of some random's on the internet

[Speed Badger]

Button Vs Hamilton - Record of their stint at McLaren together - hardly a drubbing I would say. Apart from qualifying.

~

Qualifying
Faster qualifying time: Hamilton 44 / Button 14
Poles: Hamilton 9 / Button 1
Front rows: Hamilton: 23 / Button 9

Races
Wins: Hamilton 10 / Button 8
Podiums: Hamilton 22 / Button 25
Points finishes: Hamilton 45 / Button 47
DNFs: Hamilton 13 / Button 8
Best race result (inc DNFs): Hamilton 32 / Button 26
Ahead in two-car finish: Hamilton 24 / Button 13

Championship
Overall points: Hamilton 657 / Button 672
Seasons finished higher in standings: Hamilton 2 / Button 1
Highest championship placing: Hamilton 4th (2010, 2012) / Button 2nd (2011)

[Leroy902]

No drubbing, but a fairly comfortably journey for Lewis over the 3 years.

I don't think there's anyone that can 'drub' Jenson, he's far too good a racer, unfortunately, it just so happens his teammate was one that will go down as a great.

Speed Badger said:

Button Vs Hamilton - Record of their stint at McLaren together - hardly a drubbing I would say. Apart from qualifying.

~

Qualifying
Faster qualifying time: Hamilton 44 / Button 14
Poles: Hamilton 9 / Button 1
Front rows: Hamilton: 23 / Button 9

Races
Wins: Hamilton 10 / Button 8
Podiums: Hamilton 22 / Button 25
Points finishes: Hamilton 45 / Button 47
DNFs: Hamilton 13 / Button 8
Best race result (inc DNFs): Hamilton 32 / Button 26
Ahead in two-car finish: Hamilton 24 / Button 13

Championship
Overall points: Hamilton 657 / Button 672
Seasons finished higher in standings: Hamilton 2 / Button 1
Highest championship placing: Hamilton 4th (2010, 2012) / Button 2nd (2011)