F1 to introduce 'halo' device

F1 to introduce 'halo' device

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Discussion

Eric Mc

121,768 posts

264 months

Sunday 7th February 2016
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You could say that for lots of sports and recreational activities.

tyranical

927 posts

189 months

Sunday 7th February 2016
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I think it looks quite good personally but think its actual benefit is severely limited - it protects from 1 or 2 very specific situations.

If something small hits head on, chances are its going through the slot, if something big hits from the top then it can still hit the drivers head as the halo concept shown does not completely protect the top of the drivers head as it droops below his head.

If they need to do this, and I'm not sure that they do personally then it needs to attach below the engine inlet so that the drivers head is fully protected from the impact of a large object (Like a Tyre) from directly above - additionally it needs some sort of windscreen in the slots, angled correctly to deflect items away from the car. Dirt etc they'll deal with (Hamilton drove Monaco with 1 eye a few years ago, i'm sure a bit of dirt on a windscreen is no problem) - tear offs to be removed at pit stops could be added to resolve this or invert the windscreen so the air flow will push debris etc down to the bottom (And you could include some sort of debris slot at the bottom for it to fall into) - All of this needs to be attached to the cockpit insert they remove when they get out of the car.

A tall order, but if they're going to do it then it needs to be done properly.




stemll

4,064 posts

199 months

Sunday 7th February 2016
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Evanivitch said:
stemll said:
If it's removable then surely that would weaken it too much
Like a helmet or a seat belt...
Was your second point going to be that a shoe is weaker than a roof? Would have been just as relevant a comparison.

A fastener (of any design) will be weaker than a permanent structural attachment. The last thing you want if these things are fitted is any obvious weakness so that a wheel impact breaks it and produces several flying lengths of carbon fibre right next to the head it's supposed to be protecting.

Evanivitch

19,796 posts

121 months

Sunday 7th February 2016
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stemll said:
Was your second point going to be that a shoe is weaker than a roof? Would have been just as relevant a comparison.

A fastener (of any design) will be weaker than a permanent structural attachment. The last thing you want if these things are fitted is any obvious weakness so that a wheel impact breaks it and produces several flying lengths of carbon fibre right next to the head it's supposed to be protecting.
A fastener will be weaker than a properly integrated structural solution, but it's all relative to the expected forces. To assume that a removable fixture with an appropriate safety factor included will be "too weak" is a worthless assumption. The alternative is you over engineer everything, which is something that is clearly against the ethos of F1.

Let the engineers do their job.

longshot

3,286 posts

197 months

Sunday 7th February 2016
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Expect a generation of cross eyed drivers.

amgmcqueen

3,343 posts

149 months

Sunday 7th February 2016
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This stupid device is just another step to further watering down and already over-regulated, nannying sport. Massive run off areas, driving behind the safety car because its raining, ridiculous pit lane speed limits etc, etc.
Whats next? Closed cockpits? Stupid indycar wheel covers? This is just a knee jerk reaction to a very tragic, freak accident.

F1 always has, and always should be an open cockpit formula. I cannot see how multiple devices in front of the drivers eye line is very helpful to their field of vision. My only worry is that when a device like the Halo is implemented, it is very hard to get rid of it, especially when it is linked with 'safety'.

You only have to look at MotoGP to see how ridiculously safe F1 has become over the years. Trouble is it's slowly sapped all the excitement out of an already stale spectacle.

LaurasOtherHalf

21,429 posts

195 months

Sunday 7th February 2016
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RoadRunner220 said:
But it may have prevented the deaths of Justin Wilson and Henry Surtees.
It might have had they been driving F1 cars, but they weren't so I can't see the point in the article using them as an example. It would need a miracle for it to have had an effect on Massa's accident as well.


Drone racing is the future rolleyes

Eric Mc

121,768 posts

264 months

Sunday 7th February 2016
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That's kind of what I am afraid could be the final outcome. No driver = 100% safety.

BarbaricAvatar

1,416 posts

147 months

Sunday 7th February 2016
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F1 is one of those amazing sports where 50% of the fans moan about it but they all keep watching anyway. The only viewing figures that have fallen are those for live broadcasts thanks to BBC (HATE) selling the rights to Sky. The expected exodus to Sky for fans just didn't happen, and most would rather watch a highlights programme instead of paying £360 a year for 10 more live races.

It's not longer a "man's sport" either, pretty much all the people willing to discuss F1 with me nowadays are women and they're all for the idea of protecting their hunks. The idea that drivers used to be heroes to young men is lost on them, and begrudgingly we will all have to accept that this is the way the sport is going to be from now on. It's not enough for a driver to be fearless anymore, he must be marketable and press-friendly for the new demographic of fans to support them.
Drivers get "cute" nicknames now; Honey Badger, Giraffe, Britney; a far cry from the manly names of yesteryear. Drivers get renewed contracts based on popularity rather than driving ability (Raikkonen, Button). Again, all in support of the core female fanbase of the modern age. I'm not saying it's a bad thing. But i, like others, find it a hard pill to swallow that my favourite sport is changing in a way that i dislike.
There's no way back, we just have to accept it.

Eric Mc

121,768 posts

264 months

Sunday 7th February 2016
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That's depressing reading.

stephen300o

15,464 posts

227 months

Sunday 7th February 2016
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It really is turning into a desperate mess this F1 thing, the changes are accelerating, any reason we used to have to watch is going, I missed most of last years races, and looks like I shall miss all of this years. The negatives outweigh any positives now, a shame as I had thirty good years watching before. Oh well, we move on.

anonymous-user

53 months

Sunday 7th February 2016
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poppopbangbang said:
This isn't about an element of danger. This is about what is an acceptable risk and what can be mitigated against in a straight forward, easy way without impacting the basic elements of the sport. The sport is bloody dangerous for everyone in it from mechanics, to rig engineers at the factory to the guys in the cars and there is nothing you can do to change that, the lack of deaths in and around F1 are a testament to the skill and ability of those involved in it - that is an inarguable point.

I owe F1 everything I have as without it I would not be where I am today, with the things I have and the people around me that I have. F1 and high level motorsport have quite honestly made me the person I am today and I am immensely thankful to it for that.... but that doesn't change the fact that in July 2009 I along with many others questioned our continued involvement in the sport. We did it again in 2012 and again in 2014 and again when that event reached the conclusion we knew it was going to in July last year. For those two later events the sport, the industry around it and those involved in it made changes to mitigate the risk with the aim of those events never happening again. It has taken until now for a viable solution to wheel offs to be developed, validated and put in a state that it can be implemented. The only reason not to do it would be if there was a way to vastly reduce the chances of a wheel off but that is simply not possible at this point in time.

There are few people at the sharp end of motorsport that don't have scars to show for it, pretty much all of us have broken bones, burnt or developed life long issues from it but that doesn't change our love for it or our commitment to it but to expect those directly involved in it to fail to ensure the best chance of survival in all situations for our colleagues, our friends, so you can admire and applaud from the grandstands or from behind a television leaves a bad taste sufficent that if this were blocked on the grounds of "it doesn't look cool enough" or "it's not dangerous enough now" many of us would call time on this part of our careers because we do not want to go through it again for the same, avoidable, reason.

The bottom line is there is overwhelming support for this across drivers, team, management and essentially everyone involve with getting these cars from idea to circuit. It will happen, ideally for the 17 season and it will be a permanent fixture on the cars from that point.

I'll bow out of this thread now as I have nothing more to add and it's no doubt quite clear I have an emotional and professional interest in this but I hope this has given you some sort of insight into why there is such support for this within the sport.
So I take it you will no longer be involved in keeping previous period race cars functional?

rscott

14,689 posts

190 months

Sunday 7th February 2016
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The concept behind this was developed by Mercedes, not FIA, as their suggestion for improving safety. It's not the prettiest solution, but does look like it might work.

I don't see how they could have screens and keep them free from rain,oil,etc.

Interestingly, a former F1 driver has tested it in a simulator and reckons it's doesn't impact visibility much -http://www.crash.net/f1/news/226374/1/halo-safety-cockpit-best-compromise-says-davidson.html

NRS

22,078 posts

200 months

Sunday 7th February 2016
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amgmcqueen said:
This stupid device is just another step to further watering down and already over-regulated, nannying sport. Massive run off areas, driving behind the safety car because its raining, ridiculous pit lane speed limits etc, etc.
Whats next? Closed cockpits? Stupid indycar wheel covers? This is just a knee jerk reaction to a very tragic, freak accident.

F1 always has, and always should be an open cockpit formula. I cannot see how multiple devices in front of the drivers eye line is very helpful to their field of vision. My only worry is that when a device like the Halo is implemented, it is very hard to get rid of it, especially when it is linked with 'safety'.

You only have to look at MotoGP to see how ridiculously safe F1 has become over the years. Trouble is it's slowly sapped all the excitement out of an already stale spectacle.
Can we stick you, Eric and others with this view into a 200mph race series with concrete walls as the sides of the track. No need for a safety car or pit lane limiters. That should get a lot of viewers. I guess you'd have no problems with it?

amgmcqueen

3,343 posts

149 months

Sunday 7th February 2016
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NRS said:
amgmcqueen said:
This stupid device is just another step to further watering down and already over-regulated, nannying sport. Massive run off areas, driving behind the safety car because its raining, ridiculous pit lane speed limits etc, etc.
Whats next? Closed cockpits? Stupid indycar wheel covers? This is just a knee jerk reaction to a very tragic, freak accident.

F1 always has, and always should be an open cockpit formula. I cannot see how multiple devices in front of the drivers eye line is very helpful to their field of vision. My only worry is that when a device like the Halo is implemented, it is very hard to get rid of it, especially when it is linked with 'safety'.

You only have to look at MotoGP to see how ridiculously safe F1 has become over the years. Trouble is it's slowly sapped all the excitement out of an already stale spectacle.
Can we stick you, Eric and others with this view into a 200mph race series with concrete walls as the sides of the track. No need for a safety car or pit lane limiters. That should get a lot of viewers. I guess you'd have no problems with it?
Where did I suggest no safety car and no pit lane limits?



NRS

22,078 posts

200 months

Monday 8th February 2016
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You didn't. But in my opinion they are just nanny safety devices which would spoil the show. So you should have no issue as a driver not using them since some of the paying public are not interested.

OR...

Some people have different opinions on what is sensible HSE and which is nanny HSE. I think the drivers and others in the sport that it effects should be the ones to decide if they want new types of safety. Not the armchair fan who wouldn't be hurt if a freak accident happens. Not to mention what is a freak accident? 1/100? If that's the case we should expect that type of accident to occur approximately once every 5 seasons. Is that an ok number to you?

Megaflow

9,345 posts

224 months

Monday 8th February 2016
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Part of me can see the need to enclose the cockpits, there have been five 'freak' accidents in the last five years with people getting hit on the head. As far as I can see this might have helped in one of them.

Henry Surtees - IIRC the wheel came down on top of him, so this wouldn't help
Justin Wilson - Again, the nose came down from above
Maria de Villota - Sadly very little will help against an open tail lift
Jules Bianchi - Again, very little is going to help against a wheel loader
Feilpe Massa - This is the only one where this halo might of help, but in reality it is likely the spring will have gone through the gap

//j17

4,471 posts

222 months

Monday 8th February 2016
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Can anyone explain to me why F1 drivers might not be able to get out of their cars if they had closed cockpits? WEC drivers are wedged more or less as far down in their chassis as those in F1 and it didn't take Allan McNish long to get out of his Audi when he parked it upside down in the tyre wall at Le Mans a couple of years ago.

Yes, if you just slapped a lid on top a current F1 car I could see an issue but you wouldn't do that. You'd engineer 'doors' in to the new tub design from day 1.

amgmcqueen

3,343 posts

149 months

Monday 8th February 2016
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LaurasOtherHalf said:
RoadRunner220 said:
But it may have prevented the deaths of Justin Wilson and Henry Surtees.
It might have had they been driving F1 cars, but they weren't so I can't see the point in the article using them as an example. It would need a miracle for it to have had an effect on Massa's accident as well.


Drone racing is the future rolleyes
We are pretty much there now aren't we? The pit wall controlling the cars by turning the engines up or down. It's quite frankly pathetic!

Mini1275

11,098 posts

181 months

Monday 8th February 2016
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