Could a team 'do a leicester' in F1?
Discussion
Vaud said:
BigBen said:
Toyota also had a double diffuser iirc.
Ah yes, you are right - Brawn, Williams and Toyota were first.I know a few lads who work in F1 who said plenty of the mechanics downed tools and phoned book makers during the first test of the Brawn.
Could it not be said that Red Bull did a Leicester? Bought out Jaguar/Ford, brought in a top aero/designer guy, replaced their Known drivers with rookies raised through their own B team and, thanks to wind tunnel rules, went on to crush everyone else.
I guess you could say the same of Williams too- first car in 1978, first Constructor championship in 1980. Not as impressive as Jackie Stewart in the Tyrell, but still pretty good going.
I guess you could say the same of Williams too- first car in 1978, first Constructor championship in 1980. Not as impressive as Jackie Stewart in the Tyrell, but still pretty good going.
RYH64E said:
Do you think that Brawn designed a new car in the time between Honda leaving and the new season starting? The car was basically a works Honda fitted with a Mercedes engine, all of the double diffuser and chassis design work was done under Honda ownership and with lots of Honda money, if Honda hadn't sold up they would have won the 2009 championship. The biggest change to the car was the name on the front.
I think this is a very good comparison. Brawn were basically the same team who were crap the two preceding years. Just like Leicester didn't buy all their players in August, Brawn didn't design the car in March. They made one important change, engine for Brawn, manager for Leicester (and we'll never know how each would've done if they'd stuck with the original). Both nearly didn't compete in their respective competition (Leicester by nearly being relegated) and they won on a smaller budget, and with fewer team members than all their main rivals.Vaud said:
cjm said:
Does anyone have a link to the podcast?
https://soundcloud.com/motor-sport-magazineAlso available on iTunes.
Williams were generally regarded as impecunious tailenders between 1970 and 78; the FW06 woke people up and the FW07 changed all that.
Wolf- appeared nearly out of nowhere in 1977 (after co-owning Williams) and won its first race and ran strongly throughout the year.
Shadow had immense potential in early days too.
It can be done, as Brawn obviously showed - but the regs are so absurdly prescriptive and the costs so obscene that the opportunity for a new team - or an existing no hoper- to do well is remote , sadly.
Wolf- appeared nearly out of nowhere in 1977 (after co-owning Williams) and won its first race and ran strongly throughout the year.
Shadow had immense potential in early days too.
It can be done, as Brawn obviously showed - but the regs are so absurdly prescriptive and the costs so obscene that the opportunity for a new team - or an existing no hoper- to do well is remote , sadly.
S0 What said:
Vaud said:
cjm said:
Does anyone have a link to the podcast?
https://soundcloud.com/motor-sport-magazineAlso available on iTunes.
glazbagun said:
Could it not be said that Red Bull did a Leicester? Bought out Jaguar/Ford, brought in a top aero/designer guy, replaced their Known drivers with rookies raised through their own B team and, thanks to wind tunnel rules, went on to crush everyone else.
I guess you could say the same of Williams too- first car in 1978, first Constructor championship in 1980. Not as impressive as Jackie Stewart in the Tyrell, but still pretty good going.
I'd say Red Bull's story is much more in line with Man City.I guess you could say the same of Williams too- first car in 1978, first Constructor championship in 1980. Not as impressive as Jackie Stewart in the Tyrell, but still pretty good going.
A team that did absolutely nothing for years and would almost certainly have gone decades without doing anything in the future too. Then a billionaire came along, bought them and invested tremendous amounts of money which took them to a level they could only dream of previously.
While Leicester have rich owners, they haven't invested much (if any?) of their own money. It's been done purely off the back of "little guys" stepping up and achieving something that truly is remarkable.
1966? That year, Surtees and Ferrari were expected to easily take the World Championship. Unfortunately, Ferrari and Surtees had a falling out, and then Jack Brabham turned up with a home-made special and ran off with the spoils.
Someone else mentioned it, but the Stewart-Tyrrell partnership is a good one. After a promising start in 1965 and then the subsequent two years in the BRM H16 wilderness, Stewart threw in with Tyrrell and in two years they turned Matra into a world championship winner. They then repeated the feat, this time from scratch with the Tyrrell marque.
Someone else mentioned it, but the Stewart-Tyrrell partnership is a good one. After a promising start in 1965 and then the subsequent two years in the BRM H16 wilderness, Stewart threw in with Tyrrell and in two years they turned Matra into a world championship winner. They then repeated the feat, this time from scratch with the Tyrrell marque.
I know nothing about football... Fair to say I hate the whole culture of it generally.
I kept reading about 'possibly the greatest sporting story ever' and the result was incredible.
It's been so hyped up, I had in my head their star players were butchers, plumbers, bus drivers etc etc by day and then played for the team!!
Then I read they had a miserable 85 million to play football!
I know this is a smaller budget than most, but 85mil is still a lot to get going for goodness sake! Just because others get paid 60mil or similar doesn't mean they are really worth it.
Does it highlight that in reality this is more than enough money to spend kicking a ball around and be successful or show how ridiculous the sums of money are that is now spent by 'top teams'?
As for an equivalent in F1... Yeah, maybe. Teams will have their lucky day for wins, poles. But realistically it's unlikely lower funded teams could win titles. It would need simplified tech and spending limits. Brawn was a unique case, but they still did very well. Even look at big budget entries that come in and achieve nothing.
I kept reading about 'possibly the greatest sporting story ever' and the result was incredible.
It's been so hyped up, I had in my head their star players were butchers, plumbers, bus drivers etc etc by day and then played for the team!!
Then I read they had a miserable 85 million to play football!
I know this is a smaller budget than most, but 85mil is still a lot to get going for goodness sake! Just because others get paid 60mil or similar doesn't mean they are really worth it.
Does it highlight that in reality this is more than enough money to spend kicking a ball around and be successful or show how ridiculous the sums of money are that is now spent by 'top teams'?
As for an equivalent in F1... Yeah, maybe. Teams will have their lucky day for wins, poles. But realistically it's unlikely lower funded teams could win titles. It would need simplified tech and spending limits. Brawn was a unique case, but they still did very well. Even look at big budget entries that come in and achieve nothing.
Edited by DS240 on Thursday 5th May 13:32
Alex Zanardi -Team Il Baron Rampante second place in F3000 title in '91. Budget about £1.50 .
And plenty of F1 minnows beating big budget teams -not to title perhaps (but I tend to enjoy motor sport on a race by race basis anyway). Hesketh,March ( Gugelmin, Peterson (earlier on they had the budget ))and Rob Walker (Lotus - Moss, Siffert ) .
And plenty of F1 minnows beating big budget teams -not to title perhaps (but I tend to enjoy motor sport on a race by race basis anyway). Hesketh,March ( Gugelmin, Peterson (earlier on they had the budget ))and Rob Walker (Lotus - Moss, Siffert ) .
I think with brawn it depends on how much emphasis you place on the double diffuser and the murky reasons surrounding it's allowance when the likes of fez, renault and mclaren all thought it so taking the P they didn't take seriously/really start to exploit the idea even after seeing the brawn in pre-season testing. Because, what would those three know about liberal interpretation/ rule bending?
You might say an analogy to football might be if leicester had trained it's players for months pre-season with a slight variant of a performance enhancing banned substance that the top teams looked at and fully expected them to be thrown out the competition for.
~
In football it's always possible for an underdog to play better on the day and logically, perhaps a season too, the vast technological resources required for success in F1 that the top teams have make it difficult for an underdog team to challenge them, a better analogy might be an underdog driver draughted into a top team and showing up the team leader, such as hamilton/alonso in '07
You might say an analogy to football might be if leicester had trained it's players for months pre-season with a slight variant of a performance enhancing banned substance that the top teams looked at and fully expected them to be thrown out the competition for.
~
In football it's always possible for an underdog to play better on the day and logically, perhaps a season too, the vast technological resources required for success in F1 that the top teams have make it difficult for an underdog team to challenge them, a better analogy might be an underdog driver draughted into a top team and showing up the team leader, such as hamilton/alonso in '07
groomi said:
There's a hint of a possibility this year that Rebellion Racing might be able to 'Do a Leicester' at Le Mans. All of the manufacturers have had major reliability problems at both 6 hour races this year with Rebellion picking up unlikely podiums at both.
You never know...
and now that they only have 2 cars each.... could be possible.. You never know...
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