The Official 2016 Spanish Grand Prix Thread **Spoilers**
Discussion
EnglishTony said:
Does Max V. now have to use Kyvat's tyre choices?
Good question. AFAIK the PU allocations and everything is tied to the car and not the driver. Red Bull have not split tyre strategies so far in the GPs this year, so I'm assuming he'll have to work with what he's got for a few races before the next allocations can be chosen.patmahe said:
Ha, thanks to this thread I was convinced the Spanish GP was this weekend, just checked autosport and here and was wondering why I could see no results of practice or anything being discussed 
You can't have read the thread very carefully then, the date of the race is in the first line of the first post. 
VolvoT5 said:
patmahe said:
Ha, thanks to this thread I was convinced the Spanish GP was this weekend, just checked autosport and here and was wondering why I could see no results of practice or anything being discussed
You can't have read the thread very carefully then, the date of the race is in the first line of the first post. patmahe said:
VolvoT5 said:
patmahe said:
Ha, thanks to this thread I was convinced the Spanish GP was this weekend, just checked autosport and here and was wondering why I could see no results of practice or anything being discussed
You can't have read the thread very carefully then, the date of the race is in the first line of the first post. 
Dr Z said:
EnglishTony said:
Does Max V. now have to use Kyvat's tyre choices?
Good question. AFAIK the PU allocations and everything is tied to the car and not the driver. Red Bull have not split tyre strategies so far in the GPs this year, so I'm assuming he'll have to work with what he's got for a few races before the next allocations can be chosen......actually it's not totally clear. I'm probably wrong...
Teams must inform the FIA which tyres they want for each of their drivers. But at the event the tyres are allocated to the driver.
Edited by Mr_Thyroid on Friday 6th May 17:37
Mr_Thyroid said:
Dr Z said:
EnglishTony said:
Does Max V. now have to use Kyvat's tyre choices?
Good question. AFAIK the PU allocations and everything is tied to the car and not the driver. Red Bull have not split tyre strategies so far in the GPs this year, so I'm assuming he'll have to work with what he's got for a few races before the next allocations can be chosen......actually it's not totally clear. I'm probably wrong...
Teams must inform the FIA which tyres they want for each of their drivers. But at the event the tyres are allocated to the driver.
Edited by Mr_Thyroid on Friday 6th May 17:37
"Max Verstappen and Daniil Kvyat will have to use their new Formula 1 teams' existing tyre choices for the forthcoming Spanish Grand Prix.
"In light of the duo changing teams this week, Pirelli has confirmed that rather than the drivers taking their initial allocation with them, they will instead take on the choice designated for the car."
http://www.autosport.com/news/report.php/id/124136...
"In light of the duo changing teams this week, Pirelli has confirmed that rather than the drivers taking their initial allocation with them, they will instead take on the choice designated for the car."
http://www.autosport.com/news/report.php/id/124136...
How Mercedes let their drivers “race”
TL;DR: The 2014 and 2015 Spanish GPs are good case studies of how different situations can conspire to put one driver at a disadvantage. The start is critical. Anything but a 1-2 at the end of the first lap and the driver behind is fighting a losing cause. However, last year’s race here serves to illustrate how you can put yourself back into a fighting position by forcing Mercedes pit wall to deviate from their normal protocol.
I plotted the lap times of the main players in the 2015 Spanish GP below with important events marked with arrows:
At the start, Vettel gets ahead of Hamilton with Rosberg leading. Vettel clearly has an inferior car, to the tune of about 0.8s/lap compared to Rosberg or 1.4s/lap if you use Raikkonen as a reference! This is a large disadvantage even for the first stint as that’s when the Ferrari were often the closest in the races last year. Hamilton can’t find a way past Vettel despite being within DRS range for the majority of the laps.
Rosberg goes back to tracking the slower Vettel’s pace (1) as he now has enough of a buffer between him and Hamilton to conserve his tyres--this circuit has a reputation for being hard on the tyres, particularly the front left. Mercedes pit wall attention is fully on Hamilton as they try to see if Hamilton can jump Vettel somehow. He gets pitted before Rosberg.
After the first pit stops, Hamilton is still stuck behind Vettel but now he really needs to get past the Ferrari to have any chance of taking the fight to Rosberg. But he can’t. Vettel is pushing very hard on his tyres, doing everything to absorb the pressure from Hamilton (the degradation rate suggests this). And, what is Rosberg doing? Simply tracking P2 as he did in Russia ‘16.
Halfway through the stint, Mercedes pit wall have had enough as Hamilton can’t get the overtake done on track. They convert him to a 3-stop strategy and are confident that he can make up the lost time in clear air. The arrow marked (2) suggests that Rosberg is notified of this plan (after all he’s the lead driver), so he unleashes the pace he had in hand immediately to make his 2-stop strategy work vs Hamilton. 5 laps later, Hamilton pits (3).
Hamilton now has the licence to make up the lost time, so unleashing all of his car’s pace he makes up enough time to overtake Bottas and Raikkonen--both running on very old tyres. Ferrari never covered Hamilton, electing to run their own race, but if they had with Vettel, we might have continued to see a great battle between the two WDCs for P2. Ferrari clearly felt that Mercedes pace will be too hot to handle on the 3rd stint (and it probably was).
Hamilton is ahead of Vettel by the time Ferrari pit him, and Rosberg comes out a few seconds behind Hamilton having made his final stop (4). He has basically won the race now, according to the Mercedes pit wall. Rosberg chooses to keep Hamilton at arms length until he’s pitted, when he puts the hammer down (5) to have enough of a gap to Hamilton to manage till the end and also to encourage the Mercedes pit wall to call off the battle sooner. Hamilton tries to put some fast laps in for 7-8 laps with fresh medium tyres in his final stint, but Mercedes deem the gap to Rosberg too far, and Rosberg showing strong pace on the hard tyre to not be overhauled in the remaining laps. Mercedes shut down the race between #6 and #44 (6).
Much further back, Vettel starts pushing on the Hard tyre to keep the squabbling Finns at bay (7). The pace difference to Rosberg is around 0.9s/lap...so about the same as the start of the race. It will be interesting to see how much closer Ferrari are to Mercedes in this year’s race as Mercedes advantage was on the higher end here compared to other tracks.
Compare the 2015 race between team mates to that of the 2014 race when both these drivers were separated by a maximum of 4.5s throughout the whole race, trading fast laps between them (driver pitting is indicated by arrows):
It was allowed because Rosberg kept the gap small (i.e. <10s), but most importantly both cars were running 1-2 with no outside threat (Ricciardo who finished P3 was more than 16s down the road from both Mercedes cars after only 10 laps). Rosberg was the faster man that race, but Hamilton just got ahead at the start and absorbed all the pressure from Rosberg to win with just 0.7s in front.
According to Mercedes racing rules, the team mate behind is not allowed to try the undercut. Therefore, the worst outcome is when you’re behind and running 1-2; the guy at the front can basically determine your strategy and race. It’s not racing, and it heavily favours the driver who gets a better start from a front row position. There is freedom to race at the start which is why, we saw a lot of robust defensive manoeuvres being made on each other at the 1st corner of races last year. If you can come out on top of that running 1-2, you can then control the race from the front by dictating the pit stop timing to suit.
If Ferrari are a genuine threat, the team mate battle will get put on the back burner, while Mercedes concentrate on a 1-2 with some creative strategy. This is why I liked the races where Ferrari were competitive last year. It’s very boring and too managed otherwise.
TL;DR: The 2014 and 2015 Spanish GPs are good case studies of how different situations can conspire to put one driver at a disadvantage. The start is critical. Anything but a 1-2 at the end of the first lap and the driver behind is fighting a losing cause. However, last year’s race here serves to illustrate how you can put yourself back into a fighting position by forcing Mercedes pit wall to deviate from their normal protocol.
I plotted the lap times of the main players in the 2015 Spanish GP below with important events marked with arrows:
At the start, Vettel gets ahead of Hamilton with Rosberg leading. Vettel clearly has an inferior car, to the tune of about 0.8s/lap compared to Rosberg or 1.4s/lap if you use Raikkonen as a reference! This is a large disadvantage even for the first stint as that’s when the Ferrari were often the closest in the races last year. Hamilton can’t find a way past Vettel despite being within DRS range for the majority of the laps.
Rosberg goes back to tracking the slower Vettel’s pace (1) as he now has enough of a buffer between him and Hamilton to conserve his tyres--this circuit has a reputation for being hard on the tyres, particularly the front left. Mercedes pit wall attention is fully on Hamilton as they try to see if Hamilton can jump Vettel somehow. He gets pitted before Rosberg.
After the first pit stops, Hamilton is still stuck behind Vettel but now he really needs to get past the Ferrari to have any chance of taking the fight to Rosberg. But he can’t. Vettel is pushing very hard on his tyres, doing everything to absorb the pressure from Hamilton (the degradation rate suggests this). And, what is Rosberg doing? Simply tracking P2 as he did in Russia ‘16.
Halfway through the stint, Mercedes pit wall have had enough as Hamilton can’t get the overtake done on track. They convert him to a 3-stop strategy and are confident that he can make up the lost time in clear air. The arrow marked (2) suggests that Rosberg is notified of this plan (after all he’s the lead driver), so he unleashes the pace he had in hand immediately to make his 2-stop strategy work vs Hamilton. 5 laps later, Hamilton pits (3).
Hamilton now has the licence to make up the lost time, so unleashing all of his car’s pace he makes up enough time to overtake Bottas and Raikkonen--both running on very old tyres. Ferrari never covered Hamilton, electing to run their own race, but if they had with Vettel, we might have continued to see a great battle between the two WDCs for P2. Ferrari clearly felt that Mercedes pace will be too hot to handle on the 3rd stint (and it probably was).
Hamilton is ahead of Vettel by the time Ferrari pit him, and Rosberg comes out a few seconds behind Hamilton having made his final stop (4). He has basically won the race now, according to the Mercedes pit wall. Rosberg chooses to keep Hamilton at arms length until he’s pitted, when he puts the hammer down (5) to have enough of a gap to Hamilton to manage till the end and also to encourage the Mercedes pit wall to call off the battle sooner. Hamilton tries to put some fast laps in for 7-8 laps with fresh medium tyres in his final stint, but Mercedes deem the gap to Rosberg too far, and Rosberg showing strong pace on the hard tyre to not be overhauled in the remaining laps. Mercedes shut down the race between #6 and #44 (6).
Much further back, Vettel starts pushing on the Hard tyre to keep the squabbling Finns at bay (7). The pace difference to Rosberg is around 0.9s/lap...so about the same as the start of the race. It will be interesting to see how much closer Ferrari are to Mercedes in this year’s race as Mercedes advantage was on the higher end here compared to other tracks.
Compare the 2015 race between team mates to that of the 2014 race when both these drivers were separated by a maximum of 4.5s throughout the whole race, trading fast laps between them (driver pitting is indicated by arrows):
It was allowed because Rosberg kept the gap small (i.e. <10s), but most importantly both cars were running 1-2 with no outside threat (Ricciardo who finished P3 was more than 16s down the road from both Mercedes cars after only 10 laps). Rosberg was the faster man that race, but Hamilton just got ahead at the start and absorbed all the pressure from Rosberg to win with just 0.7s in front.
According to Mercedes racing rules, the team mate behind is not allowed to try the undercut. Therefore, the worst outcome is when you’re behind and running 1-2; the guy at the front can basically determine your strategy and race. It’s not racing, and it heavily favours the driver who gets a better start from a front row position. There is freedom to race at the start which is why, we saw a lot of robust defensive manoeuvres being made on each other at the 1st corner of races last year. If you can come out on top of that running 1-2, you can then control the race from the front by dictating the pit stop timing to suit.
If Ferrari are a genuine threat, the team mate battle will get put on the back burner, while Mercedes concentrate on a 1-2 with some creative strategy. This is why I liked the races where Ferrari were competitive last year. It’s very boring and too managed otherwise.
Edited by Dr Z on Saturday 7th May 15:46
rdjohn said:
How do you think Toto's assurance now fits with your analysis?
"So we owe it to them and we owe it to F1 to just let them race. The ride is going to be a bit more difficult for the team sometimes, but that is absolutely necessary."
On the two occasions where Mercedes have finished 1-2 this year it was a very messy race for the car behind, not unlike the 2015 Spanish GP for the pit wall so we don't know yet if Toto has been true to his promise. Let me just say that Toto's definition of racing is a bit too restrictive, but I guess the team's interests come first with regards to getting the WCC, so I can't object the team for not allowing Hamilton and Rosberg to race freely in the same way teams race against each other. "So we owe it to them and we owe it to F1 to just let them race. The ride is going to be a bit more difficult for the team sometimes, but that is absolutely necessary."
I think the problem is that Toto talks a good race, but in reality only wants to score 43 points.
I have just watched a great BTCC race limited by tyre degradation. So until the last 3 laps everyone pottered and then everyone goes for it with full commitment. Mercedes could do that and bear the risk of Silver on Silver, but instead we get the usual mediocrity.
F1 is still playing 5-day test cricket, where the world has moved on to 20-Twenty, to the enormous delight of the fans.
I have the feeling that Ian Gow's first priority is to please the crowd, but in doing so, competitors find it affordable and can potentially have their moment in the Limelight. I so wanted the Mercedes to hold on to the lead carrying full ballast, but I was also delighted when it did not. Because I want to see close racing and not dominance.
I have just watched a great BTCC race limited by tyre degradation. So until the last 3 laps everyone pottered and then everyone goes for it with full commitment. Mercedes could do that and bear the risk of Silver on Silver, but instead we get the usual mediocrity.
F1 is still playing 5-day test cricket, where the world has moved on to 20-Twenty, to the enormous delight of the fans.
I have the feeling that Ian Gow's first priority is to please the crowd, but in doing so, competitors find it affordable and can potentially have their moment in the Limelight. I so wanted the Mercedes to hold on to the lead carrying full ballast, but I was also delighted when it did not. Because I want to see close racing and not dominance.
I am not a gambling man, but out of curiosity I looked at the odds for the WCC the other day.
You have to bet £50 to win £1 for a Mercedes WCC. That's a bit like saying there is a 2% chance that Mercedes will not win the championship this year. I guess that the only smaller odds is refusing to take bets.
You have to bet £50 to win £1 for a Mercedes WCC. That's a bit like saying there is a 2% chance that Mercedes will not win the championship this year. I guess that the only smaller odds is refusing to take bets.
Marchionne expects Ferrari to start winning in Spain
This man is again trying to jinx it! Race simulations by Ferrari in the pre-season test showed them to be very close to Mercedes, but not faster than them over a race distance. Marchionne is putting more pressure on the team to perform with these comments...not sure they help in any way.
This man is again trying to jinx it! Race simulations by Ferrari in the pre-season test showed them to be very close to Mercedes, but not faster than them over a race distance. Marchionne is putting more pressure on the team to perform with these comments...not sure they help in any way.
rdjohn said:
I am not a gambling man, but out of curiosity I looked at the odds for the WCC the other day.
You have to bet £50 to win £1 for a Mercedes WCC. That's a bit like saying there is a 2% chance that Mercedes will not win the championship this year. I guess that the only smaller odds is refusing to take bets.
Prompted me to look at the Drivers Odds. Rosberg is now 4/7 on and Hamilton has lengthened to 6-4. No-one else close.You have to bet £50 to win £1 for a Mercedes WCC. That's a bit like saying there is a 2% chance that Mercedes will not win the championship this year. I guess that the only smaller odds is refusing to take bets.
Looks like the bookies have decided that everything is already finished.
I think they are right.
deadslow said:
Ferarri are great at creating the pressure cooker environment, then the wheels come off.
Crazy isn't it!Arrivabene has only been in the job 5 minutes and already there are whispers starting that he is about to be given the boot. Same old Ferrari internal blame culture. It must be impossible for anyone to perform to their full potential in that kind of toxic environment.
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