Was it Nico or Lewis at fault in Spain?

[//j17]

suffolk009 said:

Sir Jackie is talking crap. Again.

Never trust a man who wears tartan trousers.

[Gad-Westy]

angrymoby said:

no penalty, but introduced the no 'crowding' rule (& no retrospective penalty this time ) iirc

Interesting stuff. They looked pretty extreme.

[oyster]

lostkiwi said:

For me this image says it all.


Article 27.7 requires the leading driver to leave room, if there is a “significant portion” of the car attempting to pass alongside.”
A significant portion is deemed to be the front wing.

At this point Hamilton is clearly fully on the track and has his front wing overlapping Rosbergs car.
Rosberg clearly in my view did not follow the rule.

How much room did Lewis leave for Nico on the exit of Turn 1 in Austin in 2015?

The answer is the same as Nico left for Lewis in Spain.


What's good for the goose and all that.....

[patmahe]

I'd call it a racing incident, with 60/40 split on blame, Rosberg taking the majority of it.

Its very easy with the benefit of hindsight (and 10 different camera angles) to say oh Hamilton had his front wing alongside Rosberg's rear wheel Nico should have left him room, the reality is at the speeds involved and the visibility, or lack of, available and split second decisions made with the race lead at stake, st happens. Anyone who has ever done any kind of racing will know that.

I don't think either driver wanted to crash and I don't think either is massively at fault, its racing, these things happen

[Potatoes]

Agreed, Nico was aggresive but it can't be anything other than a racing incident as both were aggresive in defence/offence.

[Pixel Pusher]

Having heard all of the talk of engine settings, racing lines, leaving room etc. the one thing for me that doesn't quite seem right is body language.

As we saw, LH had his hands covering his visor instantly realising the gravity of the incident. Rapidly turning to anger (and some have said petulance) with his steering wheel.

NR you would have thought would be fuming but seemed to just get out, shrug and walk away. I'd have expected some gesticulation or response there & then. Surely that's human nature?

Was that then the reaction of someone who had cooled down instantly or the reaction of someone who's thinking, 'st, I shouldn't have done that'.

The comparison to the U.S. incident is of course obvious but there, the run off is tarmac and therefore recoverable.

I'm going 60/40 on blame for NR. It was a risky attempt at an overtake but a riskier block IMO.

[Sylvaforever]

Potatoes said:

Agreed, Nico was aggresive but it can't be anything other than a racing incident as both were aggresive in defence/offence.

The conclusion I came to in "the other thread" was sheer, near panic driven desperation, to prevent being passed after screwing up mightily.

[rdjohn]

http://thumbsnap.com/OL0wvqBA

Just before I saw this picture, I was going to post something along the lines that, when Lewis saw the flashing llight he should have gone to the outside and try to out-drag Nico.

The line being followed by "the pack" shows that it looked more like Nico had moved over for him to do that, but hindsight is wonderful.

I think there were errors on both sides, so the only reasonable conclusion was that it was a racing incident.

And it did result in an otherwise great race.

[cho]

Don't think Rosberg got a better start. Appears to be a very long straight and slip streaming.

I'm in the Rosberg was at fault camp as he closed the door way too late. It appears there wasn't a choice for Hamilton as braking wouldn't have avoided a crash so the only course of action was head onto the grass. Just because Rosberg has a right to defend doesn't mean he did it correctly. Bad timing.

As for sir Jackie's statement, don't know when it was made but who the hell parades around on the first lap not racing?! That lap is actually called the parade lap. Subsequent laps are for racing and that's what they were doing. How many races over the years have had first lap position changes?

[angrymoby]

oyster said:

How much room did Lewis leave for Nico on the exit of Turn 1 in Austin in 2015?

The answer is the same as Nico left for Lewis in Spain.


What's good for the goose and all that.....

ffs.

Lewis left as much room as the rules allow in Austin. i.e none

Nico's shove off on a straight on the other hand, read 27.7 & “significant portion” & then read the stewards report.

Nico's a lucky boy- if they weren't team mates (i.e briefed before they went in) or Nico hadn't also DNF'd, then i doubt the stewards would've been that lenient

Edited by angrymoby on Tuesday 17th May 12:07

[Richie Slow]

If you look at the start again you will see LH move to his right and block NR twice. That kind of aggression sets a tone and NR knows all about robust defence as he's been on the receiving end too many times. It needed to be done, Rosberg has yielded too many times in the past.

[Europa1]

oyster said:

How much room did Lewis leave for Nico on the exit of Turn 1 in Austin in 2015?

The answer is the same as Nico left for Lewis in Spain.


What's good for the goose and all that.....

Personally I think in Spain it was 50/50. However, in Austin the difference is the width of the track, the speed at that point, and the presence of tarmac run off.

[angrymoby]

Richie Slow said:

If you look at the start again you will see LH move to his right and block NR twice. That kind of aggression sets a tone and NR knows all about robust defence as he's been on the receiving end too many times. It needed to be done, Rosberg has yielded too many times in the past.

Yet he managed to leave a car width to his left, then half a track to his right including the grippier racing line

I doubt you'll see him being that generous again this season, from now

Edited by angrymoby on Tuesday 17th May 12:30

[Dr Z]

In all this fixation on Lewis and Nico, everyone seems to have missed that Sainz overtook Vettel round the outside in Turn 4, when Vettel was defending similarly to Rosberg. The difference? there was a lot more thinking/reaction time for Sainz than Hamilton due to the speed differential to Rosberg, and he simply sold him a dummy.

I might be invoking the ire of Hamilton fans around here, but in my opinion, he had a lot more time to prepare for this move as he had noticed Rosberg being in the wrong mode in the previous corner. If you also watch the onboard from Lewis, Rosberg's body language/car positioning clearly indicated he was going to take the defensive line before he closed the door, and he was consistent in following through with it--he did not go to the right and then turn left which might be taken to be 'crowding' the overtaker in the straight.

I mean, how long has Lewis raced with Nico? The car positioning/body language is something you should be able to read and it's not like Nico hasn't done this to him previously! I saw that Lewis simply drove in to the closing gap and on to the grass. The defender is allowed one move and that can be gradual or sudden as long as no car is alongside. Ooh I've got my front wing next to his rear tyre so he must leave a car's width doesn't work given the speed differential from both sides. So my sentiments are similar to the Stewards. I voted 50/50.

[37chevy]

oyster said:

How much room did Lewis leave for Nico on the exit of Turn 1 in Austin in 2015?

The answer is the same as Nico left for Lewis in Spain.


What's good for the goose and all that.....

RUBBISH! entirely different situation. In that instance Lewis was taking the normal racing line out of the corner, in this instance Nico aggressively moved across the track to block....if people can't see the difference then they need their heads looking at!

[37chevy]

Richie Slow said:

If you look at the start again you will see LH move to his right and block NR twice. That kind of aggression sets a tone and NR knows all about robust defence as he's been on the receiving end too many times. It needed to be done, Rosberg has yielded too many times in the past.

Again rubbish, Lewis wasn't aggressive at turn 1, a cars width was left and he gradually moved across to defend rather than nicos move which aggressively swerved and didn't leave room....again if people can't understand the difference between defending and crowding someone off the track they need their heads looking at

[angrymoby]

Dr Z said:

In all this fixation on Lewis and Nico, everyone seems to have missed that Sainz overtook Vettel round the outside in Turn 4, when Vettel was defending similarly to Rosberg. The difference? there was a lot more thinking/reaction time for Sainz than Hamilton due to the speed differential to Rosberg, and he simply sold him a dummy.

I might be invoking the ire of Hamilton fans around here, but in my opinion, he had a lot more time to prepare for this move as he had noticed Rosberg being in the wrong mode in the previous corner. If you also watch the onboard from Lewis, Rosberg's body language/car positioning clearly indicated he was going to take the defensive line before he closed the door, and he was consistent in following through with it--he did not go to the right and then turn left which might be taken to be 'crowding' the overtaker in the straight.

I mean, how long has Lewis raced with Nico? The car positioning/body language is something you should be able to read and it's not like Nico hasn't done this to him previously! I saw that Lewis simply drove in to the closing gap and on to the grass. The defender is allowed one move and that can be gradual or sudden as long as no car is alongside. Ooh I've got my front wing next to his rear tyre so he must leave a car's width doesn't work given the speed differential from both sides. So my sentiments are similar to the Stewards. I voted 50/50.

Probably because he expects drivers to drive like him, i.e if he went to the outside he'd expect Nico to run him out wide ...& then you're placing a lot of trust on the other driver to not out brake himself & collect you anyways (& lets be honest, Lewis doesn't trust Nico (& i wouldn't if he was 43 points ahead in the championship) & it's not like Nico has ever out braked himself either

[Richie Slow]

37chevy said:

Again rubbish, Lewis wasn't aggressive at turn 1, a cars width was left and he gradually moved across to defend rather than nicos move which aggressively swerved and didn't leave room....again if people can't understand the difference between defending and crowding someone off the track they need their heads looking at

I was talking about the run down to turn 1 from the grid. Turn 1 is another matter, although related. LH screwed turn 1 by being too defensive of the inside line which ultimately resulted in a slow apex speed and losing the position.

I haven't ventured an opinion of blame, I was merely pointing out the underlying driving styles that led to the incident. Looking at the picture on page one and the position of LH's steering wheel I doubt he could have remained on track anyway.

[//j17]

37chevy said:

RUBBISH! entirely different situation. In that instance Lewis was taking the normal racing line out of the corner, in this instance Nico aggressively moved across the track to block....if people can't see the difference then they need their heads looking at!

I'm sure the official FIA F1 stewards are rushing to Harley Street as we speak...

[37chevy]

//j17 said:

I'm sure the official FIA F1 stewards are rushing to Harley Street as we speak...

LMAO! don't get me wrong I agree with the stewards in this case, but it just makes me laugh that people try to excuse nicos move by saying the 2 situations are the same when they are clearly completely different!