The Official 2016 Monaco Grand Prix Thread **Spoilers**

[Dr Z]

REALIST123 said:

Dr Z said:

hairyben said:

Dr Z said:

Mega lap from Ricciardo. Very pleased for him. Hamilton was also looking good but Ric was mega in S3.

Both were looking 10/10's, hamilton seemed to lose it in S3, I wonder if it was just ric/RB being better there, or if hamilton made an error, or his tyres were showing their age after his unusual several warmup lamp strat.

Don't think several lap 'warm up' makes much of a difference, if the free practice was anything to go by. The Ultra Soft is not such a fragile tyre, as you might think. If he'd have matched Ricciardo's last sector, he'd have got pole and beaten the record as he was a tenth (?) up in S1/S2 from Ricciardo. The Q3 drama with the car might have dented the confidence a bit I think. Clearly, the fact that he was up on Ricciardo till S3 suggests his car was working well and Ricciardo came out on top for this one.

But hadn't it been said that the Mercs' front tyres were starting to give up towards the end of their fast laps, so the extra lap or two could have made a difference, and explain the last sector fall off?

Both the Mercs were certainly slower in the last sector, but I'd say the fall off isn't so dramatic that a driver couldn't have made a difference.

These were the sector times:

Driver	Sector 1	Sector 2	Sector 3
Ricciardo	19.532	34.693	19.397
Rosberg	19.486	34.699	19.606
Hamilton	19.349	34.778	19.653

By the end of S1/S2 Hamilton was half a tenth up on Rosberg and a tenth up on Ricciardo. Hamilton only lost half a tenth to Rosberg on the final sector--the kind of gap you often see in a clear run, so I'm less inclined to believe the tyres going away in S3 explanation.

[Dr Z]

Just watching C4 highlights, Hamilton just denied that Rosberg had the same problem as him as the team has said. Interesting.

[Dr Z]

Dr Z said:

REALIST123 said:

Dr Z said:

hairyben said:

Dr Z said:

Mega lap from Ricciardo. Very pleased for him. Hamilton was also looking good but Ric was mega in S3.

Both were looking 10/10's, hamilton seemed to lose it in S3, I wonder if it was just ric/RB being better there, or if hamilton made an error, or his tyres were showing their age after his unusual several warmup lamp strat.

Don't think several lap 'warm up' makes much of a difference, if the free practice was anything to go by. The Ultra Soft is not such a fragile tyre, as you might think. If he'd have matched Ricciardo's last sector, he'd have got pole and beaten the record as he was a tenth (?) up in S1/S2 from Ricciardo. The Q3 drama with the car might have dented the confidence a bit I think. Clearly, the fact that he was up on Ricciardo till S3 suggests his car was working well and Ricciardo came out on top for this one.

But hadn't it been said that the Mercs' front tyres were starting to give up towards the end of their fast laps, so the extra lap or two could have made a difference, and explain the last sector fall off?

Both the Mercs were certainly slower in the last sector, but I'd say the fall off isn't so dramatic that a driver couldn't have made a difference.

These were the sector times:

Driver	Sector 1	Sector 2	Sector 3
Ricciardo	19.532	34.693	19.397
Rosberg	19.486	34.699	19.606
Hamilton	19.349	34.778	19.653

By the end of S1/S2 Hamilton was half a tenth up on Rosberg and a tenth up on Ricciardo. Hamilton only lost half a tenth to Rosberg on the final sector--the kind of gap you often see in a clear run, so I'm less inclined to believe the tyres going away in S3 explanation.

I have to correct myself here...the above sector times were the best registered for each driver throughout qualifying, not necessarily from the last Q3 run, as the sector times don't add up to the Q3 time for Hamilton (but do for Ric and Ros). It is therefore quite probable that the multiple laps Hamilton did before his Q3 run might have hampered him. However, his best ever final sector is not far away from Rosberg with a clear run, so I'd be inclined to say that's the best the car could do in that sector.

May be he could have pulled it out of the bag, who knows? If he had got pole though after all the Q3 stuff, it would have gone down as one of his greatest performances.

[Dr Z]

Rain is a certainty during tomorrow's race according to forecast.

http://www.netweather.tv/index.cgi?action=f1;sess=

[Dr Z]

Hungrymc said:

Dr Z said:

Rain is a certainty during tomorrow's race according to forecast.

http://www.netweather.tv/index.cgi?action=f1;sess=

Although it will liven the race up for us, I'd feel very sorry for DR if it does.

Yeah, all that nice strategy on the Super Soft might go to waste. I'm not even sure the race might start dry. There's a thunder storm forecast for the morning!

The chance of rain has been the highest it has ever been for tomorrow since when I started this thread.

If rain arrives, I suspect all but one car will be in a dry setup. I read that Verstappen's car is being rebuilt around a spare chassis to start from the pit lane. I suspect Red Bull might gamble towards a wet setup. Hopefully he can keep it clean...and charge through the field.

[Dr Z]

This race delivered! Thoroughly enjoyed it.

Pissed off that Red Bull found a way to screw over Daniel. And that squeeze by Hamilton definitely riled. I wish Ricciardo had kept up the pressure all way to the end.

Great job by Force India, all the work on the Soft tyres during the Practice sessions paid off.

Rosberg was too slow early on, but very classy of him to let his team mate go and allow him to cut the points deficit in half. Nobody shouting that the team has decided to give the WDC to Hamilton yet? Mercedes paying back Hamilton for last year's mistake perhaps?

Good points for McLaren, but the car is still not great!

Crappy situation at Sauber. Oh to be a fly on the wall at team debrief today.

Horrible weekend also for Palmer, just not with it. Probably under a bit of pressure to deliver.

[Dr Z]

hairyben said:

Dr Z said:

Rosberg was too slow early on, but very classy of him to let his team mate go and allow him to cut the points deficit in half. Nobody shouting that the team has decided to give the WDC to Hamilton yet? Mercedes paying back Hamilton for last year's mistake perhaps?

I dunno why everyone seems to think it was so big of him to release hamilton - if anything it came too late - it took several laps of hamilton chewing his ass off while ric was moving off at several secs/lap - and it was a team order not rosbergs decision.

Making out it was sooo magnanimous of rosberg to follow a team order like this, this early in the season, is actually critical of his etiquette IMO as it implies you expect less.

I'm willing to bet a large sum that had the roles been reversed, Hamilton would never have moved over. Can't remember the race, but I remember one such situation last year when he would not let Rosberg past.

But, it was good to see Mercedes racing for the win as a team. Reminded me of Red Bull in the last race.

[Dr Z]

hairyben said:

Dr Z said:

And that squeeze by Hamilton definitely riled. I wish Ricciardo had kept up the pressure all way to the end.

I thought it was hard but not unfair... the usual sobbing ham-bashers are rushing to compare it to spain but it's not like ham himself complained much about that was it?

Hard move but also pretty opportunistic from ric I thought, given ham was struggling sightly on undertemp tyres and had the line, he hasn't that much to complain about.

great race from both and I wouldn't have complained at a ric win, but what he said after was a little disappointing I felt. I'll grant him the obvs massive disappointment when he had the speed to win but pretty poor form to out his team on the podium like that, especially after handling the pressure of the race so very well.

Yes, it wasn't unfair but right on the limit for me. It annoyed me, that's all. Sure, it's not comparable to Spain, but grass vs wall? I would have preferred a little bit more margin given to Ricciardo.

[Dr Z]

hairyben said:

Dr Z said:

I'm willing to bet a large sum that had the roles been reversed, Hamilton would never have moved over. Can't remember the race, but I remember one such situation last year when he would not let Rosberg past.

But, it was good to see Mercedes racing for the win as a team. Reminded me of Red Bull in the last race.

He wouldn't slow down to let rosberg past. Rosberg was ~2 secs back and demanding to be let past, and hamiltons argument was "if he comes past me I'll let him through but I'm not slowing down" as it transpired at the end of the race there were a few secs in it and it was the right decision (for hamilton)

You should only be demanding a pass if you're that close to your team-mate the team are terrified you'll both end in the wall, as was ham on ros today.

Ah, the slower guy mysteriously finds some pace once his team mate gets on his tail. We've seen that one before, haven't we?

As I said, I can't remember what race it was.

[Dr Z]

Just a heads up, Channel 4 Highlights is on now.

[Dr Z]

The Moose said:

Dr Z said:

Yes, it wasn't unfair but right on the limit for me. It annoyed me, that's all.

I'm sorry, but what planet are you on?!

It was a beautiful piece of driving that was entirely legal, leaving more than enough room between him and the wall. Yes, it was aggressive, however it was a great racing move. I can't see why that'd annoy you - if anything it should be commended and be the sort of racing we all want to see - close and exciting racing with drivers pushed to the limit (but not beyond it).

In the heat of the moment watching the on board from Ricciardo, I was a little bit irritated, as did Ricciardo. You'd feel the same if you were in Ric's seat. What's wrong in expressing that?

Do I need racing credentials to express a subjective emotion too?

Ric had this to say in the Press Conference:

Q: (Livio Oricchio – GloboEsporte.com) To Lewis and Daniel. I would like to hear the point of view at each one of you about what happened at the exit of the chicane, when you Daniel tried to overtake Lewis – because Lewis cut the chicane.

DR: From my side, I made a… well I didn’t make a move into the chicane because Lewis defended – but I forced him into defence and by doing so he had a mistake and cut across the chicane, so I came on the radio and said “what’s going to happen here?” Because, yeah, made a mistake and then stayed in the lead. Obviously it was a chance to maybe get the lead for me. So yeah, sure, I questioned it. If he was on his own and made the mistake, fair enough, but obviously he made the mistake through defence and through the battle, so yeah, I’m not sure if they investigated it or not.

ETA: Lewis' response:

Q: They did investigate it, they decided no further action to be taken, during the race. Your side of the story Lewis?

LH: Hard to remember exactly. I think I remember that point. I think I got stuck behind a backmarker or something like that. Got poor traction out of Eight, and Daniel was all over me, so I had to be on the inside line for Turn Ten, I think it was, and being on the inside, it’s a bit more damp than being on the dry line, so locked-up and just missed. I was aware I wasn’t going to make the full turn and as I did I went off onto the wet patch, with Daniel on the dry track, and coming out I was just on ice. Wet tyres basically, so I was wheel-spinning and sliding on the exit. By the time I’d gained traction, I realised Daniel was kinda… I was ahead but Daniel was right-side of my mirrors, behind my right-rear tyre, so I knew it was close. I don’t feel that I particularly gained an advantage.

Edited by Dr Z on Sunday 29th May 19:41

[Dr Z]

The Moose said:

Dr Z said:

The Moose said:

Dr Z said:

Yes, it wasn't unfair but right on the limit for me. It annoyed me, that's all.

I'm sorry, but what planet are you on?!

It was a beautiful piece of driving that was entirely legal, leaving more than enough room between him and the wall. Yes, it was aggressive, however it was a great racing move. I can't see why that'd annoy you - if anything it should be commended and be the sort of racing we all want to see - close and exciting racing with drivers pushed to the limit (but not beyond it).

In the heat of the moment watching the on board from Ricciardo, I was a little bit irritated, as did Ricciardo. You'd feel the same if you were in Ric's seat. What's wrong in expressing that?

Do I need racing credentials to express a subjective emotion too?

Ric had this to say in the Press Conference:

Q: (Livio Oricchio – GloboEsporte.com) To Lewis and Daniel. I would like to hear the point of view at each one of you about what happened at the exit of the chicane, when you Daniel tried to overtake Lewis – because Lewis cut the chicane.

DR: From my side, I made a… well I didn’t make a move into the chicane because Lewis defended – but I forced him into defence and by doing so he had a mistake and cut across the chicane, so I came on the radio and said “what’s going to happen here?” Because, yeah, made a mistake and then stayed in the lead. Obviously it was a chance to maybe get the lead for me. So yeah, sure, I questioned it. If he was on his own and made the mistake, fair enough, but obviously he made the mistake through defence and through the battle, so yeah, I’m not sure if they investigated it or not.

I'm uncertain as to the relevance of your quote from Ric - that sounds like he's talking about the approach into the chicane, we're all talking about the exit from the chicane.

Oh, and where did I say you needed 'racing credentials to express a subjective emotion'?

Yes, that was why I was annoyed. You compromise the defender in to a corner, forcing him to out brake himself and run out of track limits. You have got a run on him as a result of this, but in addition to rejoining the track in front of you, he gives you a squeeze in the exit of the next corner. Now, tell me if you won't be a little annoyed?

As to the racing credentials, it seems in PH only real life racers are allowed to have an opinion on racing incidents like this. Again, it was an emotion, not an assessment of the aesthetic quality of the driving on display from both the drivers.

[Dr Z]

The Moose said:

My response didn't suggest anything even remotely along the lines of having to be a racing driver to comment on such incidents (and I wouldn't).

I don't think it matters where one's allegiance lies, it was an exciting few corners and as F1 fans, that's what we should all be looking forward to enjoying.

Yes, it was exciting and I enjoyed it.

[Dr Z]

I would love to see the onboard of Hamilton's outlap on the Ultra Softs. He was 11 seconds slower than his next lap while Ricciardo was busy losing 9 seconds to Hamilton whilst in the pits...it seems both Red Bull and Hamilton were competing on not winning the race at that point!

[Dr Z]

TheExcession said:

Dr Z said:

This race delivered! Thoroughly enjoyed it.

Yep! Read that last post with a Martin Brundle voice in your head.

Ha! He could have said that!

[Dr Z]

Z3MCJez said:

Dr Z said:

I would love to see the onboard of Hamilton's outlap on the Ultra Softs. He was 11 seconds slower than his next lap while Ricciardo was busy losing 9 seconds to Hamilton whilst in the pits...it seems both Red Bull and Hamilton were competing on not winning the race at that point!

I made this point earlier. I would love to see that gap properly broken down into Ricc going faster, Lewis going slowly and time not stationery in the pit lane.

Jez

Looking at the lap times, Ricciardo's first pit stop to get Inters was 25.1s. The second one for slicks was 35.3s. It is fair assume that he lost 10.2s to Hamilton in the second stop, being stationary with no wheels. Minus the pit times from their respective in-laps, Ricciardo's in-lap was 2.5s faster than Hamilton's. So in theory, Ricciardo would have been around 12.5s ahead of Hamilton when he comes out on fresh Super Softs if all had gone well, not including Hamilton's out-lap.

But Hamilton's out-lap was a 41.8, compared to a 30.6 he did the next lap, so he lost around 11 seconds to Ricciardo on his out-lap! One off track excursion by Hamilton was briefly shown I think? Ricciardo's out-lap was a 33.9, so in sum he would have been around 19 seconds ahead of Hamilton at the start of his final stint on the slicks. It must have been particularly galling for Ricciardo to learn that he couldn't even capitalise on his rival's mistakes owing to the incompetence of his team.

Edited by Dr Z on Monday 30th May 13:02

[Dr Z]

I'd missed this somehow previously, but it appears Rosberg and Ricciardo were on used slicks for their final stint, which might go in some way towards explaining why Rosberg's tyres were finished at the end and Ricciardo too faded away after lap 73...also the Haas and Manor drivers who took on Ultra Softs were able to do a similar stint length to Hamilton.

[Dr Z]

VolvoT5 said:

^ Quite a few drivers there managing to make the "ultra soft" tyres last more than half race distance.

Wehrlein was on an identical strategy to Hamilton. All the power of the Mercedes with half the downforce. I would love to see some of his onboard!

rdjohn said:

Thanks for explaining this.

No probs.

Edited by Dr Z on Monday 30th May 18:01

[Dr Z]

Z3MCJez said:

Dr Z said:

Looking at the lap times, Ricciardo's first pit stop to get Inters was 25.1s. The second one for slicks was 35.3s. It is fair assume that he lost 10.2s to Hamilton in the second stop, being stationary with no wheels. Minus the pit times from their respective in-laps, Ricciardo's in-lap was 2.5s faster than Hamilton's. So in theory, Ricciardo would have been around 12.5s ahead of Hamilton when he comes out on fresh Super Softs if all had gone well, not including Hamilton's out-lap.

But Hamilton's out-lap was a 41.8, compared to a 30.6 he did the next lap, so he lost around 11 seconds to Ricciardo on his out-lap! One off track excursion by Hamilton was briefly shown I think? Ricciardo's out-lap was a 33.9, so in sum he would have been around 19 seconds ahead of Hamilton at the start of his final stint on the slicks. It must have been particularly galling for Ricciardo to learn that he couldn't even capitalise on his rival's mistakes owing to the incompetence of his team.

Really helpful - thanks. But I don't think the gap would ever have been 19s. It would have been 10s. Basically Ricc was 2.5s quicker on his in lap (better tyres) which would have made it very close on exit but for Ham being 8s slower on his out lap than Ricc. A 41.8 to a 33.9. There is now a 10.5 second gap less the fact that Ham was 0.5 ahead when he stopped. Ricc was stationery for an extra 10s and came out just behind. It would only have been 20s if Ham was stationery for 10 extra seconds, not Ricc.

Anyway, the task has to be to find some footage of that out lap, because it was HORRIBLE and should have cost Hamilton the race.

Jez

Ah, yes you're right.

To be fair to Hamilton, I saw that Rosberg also had a similarly slow out-lap on the Ultra Softs. It did appear as if the Merc had trouble bringing the slicks up to temp in the drying track, which is a first as they've always been known to be good at getting heat in to the tyres.

[Dr Z]

Vocal Minority said:

Are fans not allowed a 'veiw from the armchair' any more - I suppose if it contradicts the sainted Lewis then no. Lewis is entitled to feel about the win as he wishes obviously - At what point have I said he can't - I have merely expressed surprise that he would rate it above other wins.

On the basis an 'average' win these days is get to 10-15 seconds in front and hold the field at arms length - it was better than that. It was 'above' this. A decent performance, and he was in a position to take advantage of a slice of luck, and held is own, knowing all he needed to do was stay calm and the in the zone (easier said than done granted).

I was directly responding to the statement that I think Chris (apologies if it was someone else) said that if Senna did it we'd talk about it for decades. Well no, we wouldn't, because it wasn't THAT memorable from an armchair point of view - it was a decent opportunistic win definitiely. But legendary? Give over.

It seems there is no place for neutrals in here. You either have to think he's the second coming or devil incarnate.

FWIW, I confess I'm a lowly armchair fan. I'd like to think that I'm objective enough to recognise and give credit when a driver performs just that other side of human ability. However, I also see no reason to elevate driver performances unnecessarily, even if it were my personal favourites.

I'm with Vocal Minority here. I see no reason to elevate Hamilton's performance in the race more than necessary. If anything, Wehrlein's performance on an identical strategy and a far worser car is more impressive. If this was any other circuit where overtakes are possible, and Hamilton had managed to defend against a faster car, then I'd say all the plaudits would have been justified.

Hamilton on a faster dry tyre than Ricciardo in a drying track manages to keep a slightly faster car (on the day) behind with some good car positioning where there is only one line on a good day! Great. I expect nothing less from a 3-time WDC. There are plenty of other drivers on that track who would have done nothing less especially as the pace delta for overtakes to be possible was said to be 4 seconds per lap.

Again, as a neutral if you ask me, the one bit of performance from the whole weekend from him that stood out for me was during Q3. His first two sectors on that final run were spine tingling. I wished he'd kept it together on S3 as he really did deserve pole. But Ricciardo was supreme in the final sector. If I were a Hamilton fan, I'd have a video of that run saved for future viewing.

---

Flooble said:

Very interesting. They'd run out of new sets presumably, having burned an extra set in qualifying (so Hamilton's Q3 fuel problem ended up helping him out?)

Yes, it does appear that way. Also, I'm sure Hamilton will be very blessed happy to realise that his wish of an ultra ultra ultra ultra soft tyres weren't granted on Sunday.

Edited by Dr Z on Tuesday 31st May 14:07