Jules Bianchi's family suing over his death
Discussion
groomi said:
DanielSan said:
18 other cars went through there in the same conditions without crashing including his team mate. The one that went through the yellows too quickly and crashed hit the recovery vehicle.
How are the FIA or team responsible for what speed a driver chooses to do? Sorry but Jules was a major factor in his own crash.
Historical, systematic negligence perhaps? For many years no driver got as much as a rap on the knuckles for going through a yellow flag sector time barely a tenth of a second slower than normal. No threat of punishment leads to the rule being ignored - such an accident was always going to happen, it was just extremely unfortunate for Jules that he hit the tractor rather than the barrier. But he could equally have hit a group of marshalls or another driver climbing from a stricken car. How are the FIA or team responsible for what speed a driver chooses to do? Sorry but Jules was a major factor in his own crash.
If he'd hit a marshal or driver he'd have been held responsible for going too fast. The only reason no one wants to speak out and hold him responsiblefor an incident that driver error played a big factor in is that he's dead.
People have committed offences and crimes of various degrees and got away with them, it doesn't mean no one should be held accountable for the same things when they are at fault still and are caught.
Vocal Minority said:
groomi said:
Historical, systematic negligence perhaps? For many years no driver got as much as a rap on the knuckles for going through a yellow flag sector time barely a tenth of a second slower than normal. No threat of punishment leads to the rule being ignored - such an accident was always going to happen, it was just extremely unfortunate for Jules that he hit the tractor rather than the barrier. But he could equally have hit a group of marshalls or another driver climbing from a stricken car.
In my opinion this has been a horrific reminder that just because no one stops them, they cannot advocate responsibility. It's like the defence 'it's legal' when something is morally iffy. The participants need to stop hiding behind what they have and haven't historically gotten away with a remember what yellow flags are for. DanielSan said:
And just because it's happened in the past doesn't excuse him from doingit.
If he'd hit a marshal or driver he'd have been held responsible for going too fast. The only reason no one wants to speak out and hold him responsiblefor an incident that driver error played a big factor in is that he's dead.
People have committed offences and crimes of various degrees and got away with them, it doesn't mean no one should be held accountable for the same things when they are at fault still and are caught.
I'm not excusing Bianchi at all, however when his (and every other driver's) job is to go faster than everyone else then it isn't reasonable to expect them to give away time and therefore positions voluntarily. Drivers shouldn't exceed track limits either, but as proven by the numerous penalties issued every race, every driver pushes it as far as they can get away with it.If he'd hit a marshal or driver he'd have been held responsible for going too fast. The only reason no one wants to speak out and hold him responsiblefor an incident that driver error played a big factor in is that he's dead.
People have committed offences and crimes of various degrees and got away with them, it doesn't mean no one should be held accountable for the same things when they are at fault still and are caught.
The point I am making is that I cannot remember anyone ever being penalised for driving too fast under yellow flags (Happy to be proven wrong). Where was the rule enforcement on such a critical safety matter? And for the record, I have been commenting about this for some years, not just since Bianchi's accident.
groomi said:
I'm not excusing Bianchi at all, however when his (and every other driver's) job is to go faster than everyone else then it isn't reasonable to expect them to give away time and therefore positions voluntarily.
Given the nature and purpose of yellow flags, and what they are for (the protection of everyone involved, not just drivers) I would say it is entirely reasonable to expect the drivers, as a collective, to take responsibility to ensure this purpose is served above and beyond their job description.I'm not picking on Bianchi specifically. I am picking on all 22 of them.
Just IMHO of course.
Vocal Minority said:
groomi said:
I'm not excusing Bianchi at all, however when his (and every other driver's) job is to go faster than everyone else then it isn't reasonable to expect them to give away time and therefore positions voluntarily.
Given the nature and purpose of yellow flags, and what they are for (the protection of everyone involved, not just drivers) I would say it is entirely reasonable to expect the drivers, as a collective, to take responsibility to ensure this purpose is served above and beyond their job description.I'm not picking on Bianchi specifically. I am picking on all 22 of them.
Just IMHO of course.
groomi said:
The point I am making is that I cannot remember anyone ever being penalised for driving too fast under yellow flags (Happy to be proven wrong). Where was the rule enforcement on such a critical safety matter? And for the record, I have been commenting about this for some years, not just since Bianchi's accident.
Not sure why I remember, probably because at the time it was contentious, but after practice for the 1997 Japanese GP at Suzuka, J Villeneuve was penalised for ignoring yellow flags, which I presume meant he was speeding. He was demoted from pole to the back of the grid, Williams appealed which meant he started from pole and then they withdrew the appeal after the race so he lost the points for that race. The lost points meant Schumacher took the lead in the championship.Vocal Minority said:
groomi said:
And how do you propose to make sure they meet your expectations?
That's a fair point. I'm not sure it's possible. It's more of a princpile/wish. I am just saying it's not unreasonable to expect them to respect rules for safety...because people have died!
DanielSan said:
groomi said:
DanielSan said:
18 other cars went through there in the same conditions without crashing including his team mate. The one that went through the yellows too quickly and crashed hit the recovery vehicle.
How are the FIA or team responsible for what speed a driver chooses to do? Sorry but Jules was a major factor in his own crash.
Historical, systematic negligence perhaps? For many years no driver got as much as a rap on the knuckles for going through a yellow flag sector time barely a tenth of a second slower than normal. No threat of punishment leads to the rule being ignored - such an accident was always going to happen, it was just extremely unfortunate for Jules that he hit the tractor rather than the barrier. But he could equally have hit a group of marshalls or another driver climbing from a stricken car. How are the FIA or team responsible for what speed a driver chooses to do? Sorry but Jules was a major factor in his own crash.
If he'd hit a marshal or driver he'd have been held responsible for going too fast. The only reason no one wants to speak out and hold him responsible for an incident that driver error played a big factor in is that he's dead.
People have committed offences and crimes of various degrees and got away with them, it doesn't mean no one should be held accountable for the same things when they are at fault still and are caught.
groomi said:
It is possible. Enforce the rules which already exist. Drivers will soon accept they have to slow down if they they are penalised for not doing so.
Agreed. Double waved yellows are still a joke - the drivers have to go slower, but can still be 9/10s which doesn't remove a whole bunch of energy from an incident.ralphrj said:
rhinochopig said:
Why was he on both?
Impossible to say for definite. It is possible that Bianchi knew what the technical rules said the car should do and stood on both pedals expecting the car to stop.Just another Possible scenario.
Personally I think this could be yet another nail in the coffin for motorsport if people get sued when something goes wrong.
Vaud said:
groomi said:
It is possible. Enforce the rules which already exist. Drivers will soon accept they have to slow down if they they are penalised for not doing so.
Agreed. Double waved yellows are still a joke - the drivers have to go slower, but can still be 9/10s which doesn't remove a whole bunch of energy from an incident.groomi said:
It is possible. Enforce the rules which already exist. Drivers will soon accept they have to slow down if they they are penalised for not doing so.
I agree FIA should enforce rules. My additional points is that it was bloody disappointing to hear drivers say basically 'The FIA should save us from ourselves' rather than the teams standing up as one and making the grown up decision, which is to do it without needing to be forced into it.
Vocal Minority said:
groomi said:
It is possible. Enforce the rules which already exist. Drivers will soon accept they have to slow down if they they are penalised for not doing so.
I agree FIA should enforce rules. My additional points is that it was bloody disappointing to hear drivers say basically 'The FIA should save us from ourselves' rather than the teams standing up as one and making the grown up decision, which is to do it without needing to be forced into it.
It's all well and good pontificating from the sofa when not actually doing it.
Even in cricket they don't walk if they think they can get away with it nowadays....
F1 is the ultimate in taking a mile if you can get away with an inch. The F1 rules are not that good either. Hence all the arguments.
Should the FIA have put in place better protection for drivers and marshals after the Brundel Japanese GP in 94 ?
Regardless of how the crash occurred, was it reasonable in all circumstances to put a heavy tractor on the track, or put marshals on the track and were they negligent in not providing a safe system of work for those marshals and the drivers ?, was an adequate risk assessment completed ? Time for the judges
Seems obvious now, as most accidents do, but while I have the deepest sympathy for the Bianchi's family, I wonder what Jules would think ?
Regardless of how the crash occurred, was it reasonable in all circumstances to put a heavy tractor on the track, or put marshals on the track and were they negligent in not providing a safe system of work for those marshals and the drivers ?, was an adequate risk assessment completed ? Time for the judges
Seems obvious now, as most accidents do, but while I have the deepest sympathy for the Bianchi's family, I wonder what Jules would think ?
Just gonna leave this here:
https://formerf1doc.wordpress.com/
Some interesting comments from a man more knowledgeable in these matters than all of us together.
https://formerf1doc.wordpress.com/
Some interesting comments from a man more knowledgeable in these matters than all of us together.
Motorsport can never be 100% safe.
ATOED. Drivers know the risk - but have always pushed the limits against yellow flags
Full safety course yellows is a good answer.
But to be fair - even better is heavily padded recovery vehicles.
And.. then.. if you say... all weather tyres that can handle all conditions and the grip doesn't fall off.
Where do you stop? Drone racing?
ATOED. Drivers know the risk - but have always pushed the limits against yellow flags
Full safety course yellows is a good answer.
But to be fair - even better is heavily padded recovery vehicles.
And.. then.. if you say... all weather tyres that can handle all conditions and the grip doesn't fall off.
Where do you stop? Drone racing?
Gandahar said:
But drivers drive themselves off the road, that's why they are world champions, or want to be. Senna v Prost? They are ultra competitive just like the teams who drive that spirit. Hence why they take every opportunity also to bend the rules.
It's all well and good pontificating from the sofa when not actually doing it.
Even in cricket they don't walk if they think they can get away with it nowadays....
F1 is the ultimate in taking a mile if you can get away with an inch. The F1 rules are not that good either. Hence all the arguments.
I'm going to be honest - I don't give a fIt's all well and good pontificating from the sofa when not actually doing it.
Even in cricket they don't walk if they think they can get away with it nowadays....
F1 is the ultimate in taking a mile if you can get away with an inch. The F1 rules are not that good either. Hence all the arguments.
k. Not one. They are grown ups - what if it had been A Marshall?I don't give a s
t that it's what world champions are made of. They are grown ups and need to give themselves a slap and act like it. Possibly that is unrealistic - to ask an adult to remember it's not just their life at stake when they go through waved yellows at racing speed. But I'm an idealist
ERIKM400 said:
Just gonna leave this here:
https://formerf1doc.wordpress.com/
Some interesting comments from a man more knowledgeable in these matters than all of us together.
I was never quite sure if there was a bit of sour grapes going on with fromerF1doc but it does appear that he has substantial reasons to be like he is towards F1 (or at least F1's masters!).https://formerf1doc.wordpress.com/
Some interesting comments from a man more knowledgeable in these matters than all of us together.
I'm curious as to what he means by the disparity between current extrication methods and those F1 use?
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