Would a modern day F1 car beat a 10 or 12 year old one?

[Thankyou4calling]

Around the same circuit, say Silverstone.

The present cars are down on power but would the better aerodynamics and handling overcome that?

If not, which cars were the fastest?

[stevesuk]

Thankyou4calling said:

Around the same circuit, say Silverstone.

The present cars are down on power but would the better aerodynamics and handling overcome that?

If not, which cars were the fastest?

Earlier in the month, the Boss GP boys were at the Red Bull ring in Austria.

In 2015, at the Austrian GP, Nico Rosberg's fastest race lap was 1:11.235.

Ingo Gerstl (who runs a 2006 Toro Rosso) managed 1:14.257, and Klaas Zwart (Jaguar R5) managed 1:14.722.

Neither Torro Rosso or the Jaguar were dominating F1 back in the day, yet they still managed to get to almost within 3 seconds of last season's dominating team's fastest race lap.

Without wanting to sound like I'm being critical of either Boss GP driver, I doubt Ingo Gerstl or Klaas Zwart are as "quick" in real terms as Nico Rosberg, and I bet they're not pushing their privately run cars to the same limits a "factory" team would be either - so all very impressive stuff.

Oh - and the noise :-) https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tA8fWJvGif0

[Vocal Minority]

Well here are the pole times from the 2000s for Monaco. I think the track was remodelled in 2006-ish?

Time
2010 Mark WEBBER (Red Bull-Renault) 01:13.826
2009 Kimi RAIKKONEN (Ferrari) 01:14.514
2008 Felipe MASSA (Ferrari) 01:15.110
2007 Fernando ALONSO (McLaren-Mercedes) 01:15.431
2006 Kimi RAIKKONEN (McLaren-Mercedes) 01:13.532
2005 Kimi RAIKKONEN (McLaren-Mercedes) 01:13.644
2004 Jarno TRULLI (Renault) 01:14.439
2003 Ralf SCHUMACHER (Williams-BMW) 01:15.259
2002 Juan Pablo MONTOYA (Williams-BMW) 01:16.676
2001 David COULTHARD (McLaren-Mercedes) 01:17.430
2000 Michael SCHUMACHER (Ferrari) 01:19.475


Daniel Ricciardo has done a 1:14.6 so far this weekend.

[HustleRussell]

stevesuk said:

In 2015, at the Austrian GP, Nico Rosberg's fastest race lap was 1:11.235.

Fastest race lap in modern F1 is a pretty poor indicator due to Pirelli being rubbish. I bet the cars was over two seconds a lap quicker in Q3.

[stevesuk]

HustleRussell said:

Fastest race lap in modern F1 is a pretty poor indicator due to Pirelli being rubbish. I bet the cars was over two seconds a lap quicker in Q3.

Pole position in 2015 was 1:08.455 - so you're looking at between 5 and 6 seconds slower than that. Still quite impressive when you're talking about privateer racers running 10 year old "mid-field" kit without any factory backing... Both would have qualified ahead of Will Steven's Marussia

[jamiebae]

Tyres play a massive part. If you swapped a set of grooved Michelins for some new Pirelli Ultra-softs the old car would be a lot faster. If the cars had to run contemporary tyres then just look at pole position times across the years, often a 10 year old car is faster but only just.

[Vocal Minority]

Pole in for Austria in 2003 was a 1:09.15

Fastest lap was a 1:08.337

Schumach actually did a 1:07.09 seconds in Q1

[HustleRussell]

jamiebae said:

Tyres play a massive part. If you swapped a set of grooved Michelins for some new Pirelli Ultra-softs the old car would be a lot faster. If the cars had to run contemporary tyres then just look at pole position times across the years, often a 10 year old car is faster but only just.

I would've expected the Michelins to be quicker.

[Ahonen]

It's an apples and oranges comparison to a certain extent. The biggest factor in the lap time difference is weight. Modern cars are over 100kg heavier than they were 10 years ago and that has a huge influence on the pace. Around most circuits you can factor in around 0.3 to 0.4 seconds per lap for each 10kg of weight the car carries (with Monaco being slightly less, but not much), so the 105kg that a current car carries around compared to a 2006 car has effectively slowed it down by something like 3-4 seconds at any given circuit. Even around Monaco that's over 2.5 seconds of weight - so take 2.5 seconds off Ricciardo's time yesterday and you'll get a real comparison to 2006.

Edit: This would also take the weight-corrected Austian pole time down to around a 1:06.0.

Edited by Ahonen on Friday 27th May 13:24

[jamiebae]

HustleRussell said:

jamiebae said:

Tyres play a massive part. If you swapped a set of grooved Michelins for some new Pirelli Ultra-softs the old car would be a lot faster. If the cars had to run contemporary tyres then just look at pole position times across the years, often a 10 year old car is faster but only just.

I would've expected the Michelins to be quicker.

Not the grooved ones compared to the Ultra Soft Pirellis.

Tyre tech has come on massively in the last 10 years, yes the hard Pirellis might be slower but the softer stuff will be a good chunk quicker.

[Vocal Minority]

Ahonen said:

It's an apples and oranges comparison to a certain extent. The biggest factor in the lap time difference is weight. Modern cars are over 100kg heavier than they were 10 years ago and that has a huge influence on the pace. Around most circuits you can factor in around 0.3 to 0.4 seconds per lap for each 10kg of weight the car carries (with Monaco being slightly less, but not much), so the 105kg that a current car carries around compared to a 2006 car has effectively slowed it down by something like 3-4 seconds at any given circuit. Even around Monaco that's over 2.5 seconds of weight - so take 2.5 seconds off Ricciardo's time yesterday and you'll get a real comparison to 2006.

Edit: This would also take the weight-corrected Austian pole time down to around a 1:06.0.

Edited by Ahonen on Friday 27th May 13:24

But surely that's the whole point - a heavier car is a slower car. Just like a more powerful car is quicker.

So why don't we do some power adjusted laps, or some aerodynamic adjusted laps - to account for the variance in regulations?

Well - that's not really what we are asking. Would a modern day F1 car (that implies one adhering to the Formula/regulations) beat a 10 or 12 year old one (that implies one adhering to the contemporary regulations of the time).

The answer appears to be no - or it would be too close to call. Yes I know they are heavier. That's probably why!

[Thankyou4calling]

All I wanted to know was a simple answer to a simple question. On the same track would a 2016 (or 2006 2/3/4/5/6) car be the fastest.

Use whatever tyres they used then and now, whatever engine, whatever driver aids.

Thanks

[jamiebae]

Bahrain qualifying results:

2004 Michael Schumacher Ferrari 1:30.139
2005 Fernando Alonso Renault 1:29.848
2006 Michael Schumacher Ferrari 1:31.431
2007 Felipe Massa Ferrari 1:31.359

2015 Lewis Hamilton Mercedes 1:32.571
2016 Lewis Hamilton Mercedes 1:29.493

So it's pretty close between today and 2005 it appears.

[Ahonen]

Vocal Minority said:

But surely that's the whole point - a heavier car is a slower car. Just like a more powerful car is quicker.

So why don't we do some power adjusted laps, or some aerodynamic adjusted laps - to account for the variance in regulations?

Well - that's not really what we are asking. Would a modern day F1 car (that implies one adhering to the Formula/regulations) beat a 10 or 12 year old one (that implies one adhering to the contemporary regulations of the time).

The answer appears to be no - or it would be too close to call. Yes I know they are heavier. That's probably why!

Okay, understood. I was merely trying to provide context about the most important element before the armchair experts start discussing tyres, aero, weight distribution, power delivery etc.

I don't really care which would be faster.

[HustleRussell]

Ahonen said:

Okay, understood. I was merely trying to provide context about the most important element before the armchair experts start discussing tyres, aero, weight distribution, power delivery etc.

I don't really care which would be faster.

Thanks very much for telling us all about the most important part

May we now feast on your scraps?

[ukaskew]

A genuine like for like comparison is probably more difficult than it seems to put together. Most circuits have at the very least been re-profiled, kerbs added etc. As a rule they tend to make them slower, not quicker.

[DanielSan]

jamiebae said:

Bahrain qualifying results:

2004 Michael Schumacher Ferrari 1:30.139
2005 Fernando Alonso Renault 1:29.848
2006 Michael Schumacher Ferrari 1:31.431
2007 Felipe Massa Ferrari 1:31.359

2015 Lewis Hamilton Mercedes 1:32.571
2016 Lewis Hamilton Mercedes 1:29.493

So it's pretty close between today and 2005 it appears.

Hasn't part of Bahrain been changed a bit since it was first used though?

[AreOut]

I think it would be quite easy for a big company to organise a championship with cars a good bit faster than current F1 cars(more powerful engine, better tires, active aero etc.), so what's to stop them? Nobody would actually insure them as it would be too dangerous?!

[Oldwolf]

AreOut said:

I think it would be quite easy for a big company to organise a championship with cars a good bit faster than current F1 cars(more powerful engine, better tires, active aero etc.), so what's to stop them? Nobody would actually insure them as it would be too dangerous?!

One word - cost.
F1 cars are very fast but restricted by the rules. You can go faster of course with more power (look at LMP1 cars with up to 1500HP at peak - but their aero and weight restrict them) but you would need manufacturers to buy in to it to produce our Super-Better-Than-F1 cars and you are talking a serious amount of cash to do that.

And if they couldn't follow in dirty air it's not going to be more exciting than F1 which means the racing isn't exciting.

And before the Trolls come, yes I am a grumpy old man, I love motorsport and follow F1 and WEC but I ADORE Group B Rally and Group C Le Mans.

[Dr Z]

Went to the archive and dug out some data for the Temple of Speed, Monza.

Below is a table with the average speed (km/h) in which a race distance was completed by the race winner and next to it, the pole lap speed. The fourth column is the difference between the 'ultimate pace' as registered in Qualifying and the race pace.

Year	Race average speed	Pole lap Speed	Difference
2001	239.321	253.66	14.34
2002	241.334	259.83	18.49
2003	247.835	257.58	9.75
2004	244.620	260.40	15.77
2005	247.346	257.86	10.51
2006	246.062	255.94	9.88
2007	245.990	254.34	8.35
2009	241.243	248.08	6.83
2010	241.092	254.44	13.35
2011	234.602	253.48	18.87
2012	231.176	248.24	17.07
2013	234.505	249.00	14.49
2014	232.684	247.95	15.27
2015	236.141	250.07	13.93

If you want ultimate speed, the 2015 Mercedes ranks only 12th fastest, so you have a choice of pole sitting cars from 2001-2007 but your best bet is a Ferrari F2004.

If you want a car that completed a GP distance the fastest, you go with the Ferrari F2003-GA. Here again you have 11 cars pre-dating the 2015 Mercedes that are faster.

I found it interesting that the 2009 double diffuser cars had the least difference between their race pace and ultimate pace (6.83 km/h), compared to the 2012 cars or indeed the 2002 cars! I wonder if people were complaining that the cars were several seconds off qualifying pace in the races in 2002, as they do now!