So they are going with Halo devices then

[Crafty_]

So strategy group have rejected them, they will not appear until 2018 at earliest.

There is a continuing theme of 'anything that makers it saferg is good, therefore we should have them' which is fine but I don't think people are convinced that they are actually safer.

I don't think they are being rejected on looks alone

[p1stonhead]

Can you imagine what will happen if someone dies or gets hurt next season when they wouldn't have with the halo?

[MartG]

p1stonhead said:

Can you imagine what will happen if someone dies or gets hurt next season when they wouldn't have with the halo?

A lot of lawyers will get very rich

[longshot]

I still can't figure out who these are going to save.

An incident would have to fit into some very tight parameters for this to be of use.

I can't think of a past accident where these would have helped. Tom Pryce perhaps?

[Crafty_]

I said before this is more about politics than safety for the FIA

[p1stonhead]

longshot said:

I still can't figure out who these are going to save.

An incident would have to fit into some very tight parameters for this to be of use.

I can't think of a past accident where these would have helped. Tom Pryce perhaps?

Massa (maybe), Henry Surtees?

And back in the day, Senna.

[longshot]

p1stonhead said:

longshot said:

I still can't figure out who these are going to save.

An incident would have to fit into some very tight parameters for this to be of use.

I can't think of a past accident where these would have helped. Tom Pryce perhaps?

Massa (maybe), Henry Surtees?

And back in the day, Senna.

Massa, no. It would have hit him anyway and proves that luck would be involved for it to be of use in a similar incident.

Surtees, maybe, but I read somewhere that the wheel and tyre 'fell' on him so maybe not.

Senna, no. Too much energy involved.

This it you see. It's hard to find an instance where it would categorically have been helpful.

[p1stonhead]

longshot said:

p1stonhead said:

longshot said:

I still can't figure out who these are going to save.

An incident would have to fit into some very tight parameters for this to be of use.

I can't think of a past accident where these would have helped. Tom Pryce perhaps?

Massa (maybe), Henry Surtees?

And back in the day, Senna.

Massa, no. It would have hit him anyway and proves that luck would be involved for it to be of use in a similar incident.

Surtees, maybe, but I read somewhere that the wheel and tyre 'fell' on him so maybe not.

Senna, no. Too much energy involved.

This it you see. It's hard to find an instance where it would categorically have been helpful.

I thought I read the halo would be pretty much indestructible light a jet fighter cockpit. Senna got hit in the head with the wheel so I would have thought it would have been ok!

Surtees definitely took a wheel to the face too. https://youtu.be/0eHU5Bqe_4Q

Bianchi would have probably not fared any different though I'm guessing.

[kambites]

longshot said:

Senna, no. Too much energy involved.

In what way? It was a relatively minor accident that became a fatality because he got hit by a wheel with a suspension arm still attached at exactly the wrong angle so the arm pierced his helmet. One of the main tests for this thing was firing a wheel at it (at far higher speed than the Senna wheel was travelling).

[longshot]

kambites said:

longshot said:

Senna, no. Too much energy involved.

In what way? It was a relatively minor accident that became a fatality because he got hit by a wheel with a suspension arm still attached at exactly the wrong angle so the arm pierced his helmet. One of the main tests for this thing was firing a wheel at it (at far higher speed than the Senna wheel was travelling).

Apparently, the wheel that hit Senna is unusual in that it didn't so much hit him as be forced at him when it hit the wall.
It couldn't recoil as the wall was forcing it on and Sennas car forcing him towards the wheel.

[longshot]

p1stonhead said:

Surtees definitely took a wheel to the face too. https://youtu.be/0eHU5Bqe_4Q

As I said though, it didn't so much hit him as drop on him then hit him so it's debatable whether he would have survived or not.

[p1stonhead]

longshot said:

p1stonhead said:

Surtees definitely took a wheel to the face too. https://youtu.be/0eHU5Bqe_4Q

As I said though, it didn't so much hit him as drop on him then hit him so it's debatable whether he would have survived or not.

How could it have dropped on his head whilst he was going 100mph+? It was slowly bouncing across the track and so would only have been able to either graze the top of his head or hit him straight on. Both would have been stopped by the halo.

Edited by p1stonhead on Thursday 28th July 21:15

[angrymoby]

longshot said:

Massa, no. It would have hit him anyway and proves that luck would be involved for it to be of use in a similar incident.

Surtees, maybe, but I read somewhere that the wheel and tyre 'fell' on him so maybe not.

Senna, no. Too much energy involved.

This it you see. It's hard to find an instance where it would categorically have been helpful.

do you not suppose that F1 teams with the resources they have, might just have ran a fair few simulations including of all the scenario's above (& more) ...& that they might have more of a clue than a random person on the internet as to a halo's effectiveness? (presuming you're not a CAD simulation engineer/expert)

[longshot]

angrymoby said:

longshot said:

Massa, no. It would have hit him anyway and proves that luck would be involved for it to be of use in a similar incident.

Surtees, maybe, but I read somewhere that the wheel and tyre 'fell' on him so maybe not.

Senna, no. Too much energy involved.

This it you see. It's hard to find an instance where it would categorically have been helpful.

do you not suppose that F1 teams with the resources they have, might just have ran a fair few simulations including of all the scenario's above (& more) ...& that they might have more of a clue than a random person on the internet as to a halo's effectiveness? (presuming you're not a CAD simulation engineer/expert)

You'd hope so wouldn't you.

[kambites]

longshot said:

kambites said:

longshot said:

Senna, no. Too much energy involved.

In what way? It was a relatively minor accident that became a fatality because he got hit by a wheel with a suspension arm still attached at exactly the wrong angle so the arm pierced his helmet. One of the main tests for this thing was firing a wheel at it (at far higher speed than the Senna wheel was travelling).

Apparently, the wheel that hit Senna is unusual in that it didn't so much hit him as be forced at him when it hit the wall.
It couldn't recoil as the wall was forcing it on and Sennas car forcing him towards the wheel.

Even in that case, the halo is apparently strong enough to deflect the whole car away from the wall in that situation. I'm sure the halo wont stop the mass of the car in a head-on at a significant speed but it should be quite capable of changing its angle slightly in an oblique collision.

Edited by kambites on Thursday 28th July 22:08

[Crafty_]

More to the point have they actually tested halo to ensure it doesn't increase risk?

Have they put a car upside down, dug in to a gravel trap and observed a driver getting out?

Have they modeled close accidents (Spa 2012 for example) to see what happens ? There was a suggestion from a force India engineer that another car or parts could get caught in the halo and endanger drivers where an open cockpit poses leeds odd a threat.

To me the FIA have constructed tests to give them the answer they want rather than actually do due diligence.

I'm in no way convinced halo is actually better in all scenarios.

[lbc]

I think it is 50/50 if it will save a life.

On that basis it will possibly save one of two drivers.

Should it be enforced?

It is the drivers that need to decide.

I would like to see a mix of halo and non halo cars rather than a blanket enforcement by the FIA.

[kambites]

lbc said:

I would like to see a mix of halo and non halo cars rather than a blanket enforcement by the FIA.

You wouldn't though because it's pretty much certain to be a performance disadvantage.

[HustleRussell]

'No Halo in 2017'

http://bbc.co.uk/sport/formula1/36919451

[Europa1]

HustleRussell said:

'No Halo in 2017'

http://bbc.co.uk/sport/formula1/36919451

Tell me, are you ever late for social occasions?