The Official 2016 Hungarian Grand Prix Thread **Spoilers**
Discussion
He's been summoned: http://www.motorsport.com/f1/news/rosberg-summoned...
He did the absolute minimum required to comply with the rules, double yellows mean "slow down, be prepared to stop, no passing".
He passed one car still under yellows and imho wouldn't have been able to stop if the obstruction was still present on the track (he didn't know if it was or not). He was only a tenth slower than his previous lap apparently.
That said he did lift in to the left hander, a lift is generally what stewards look for.
So, it comes down to interpretation of the rules - if you should lift, how much should you lift ? how slow should you go until you see a green flag ? a tenth ? two tenths ? what if another car is going very slowly because they didn't want to fall foul of the non blocking rule? should you pass ?
Yet again the FIA have a rule that is full of ifs, buts and maybes. Lewis, quite rightly has asked for clarification http://www.motorsport.com/f1/news/hamilton-calls-o...
Personally, I think it was marginal, the stewards need to decide if marginal is enough or not.
ETA, FIA International Sporting Code says:
1) Define "Reduce your speed significantly".
2) This says no overtaking, but article 31.6 of the F1 sporting regulations says that no driver should unnecessarily impede another. Nico passed a car in the yellows, it was going very slowly and presumably the driver was doing their best to comply with this rule. Which rule takes precedence ?
He did the absolute minimum required to comply with the rules, double yellows mean "slow down, be prepared to stop, no passing".
He passed one car still under yellows and imho wouldn't have been able to stop if the obstruction was still present on the track (he didn't know if it was or not). He was only a tenth slower than his previous lap apparently.
That said he did lift in to the left hander, a lift is generally what stewards look for.
So, it comes down to interpretation of the rules - if you should lift, how much should you lift ? how slow should you go until you see a green flag ? a tenth ? two tenths ? what if another car is going very slowly because they didn't want to fall foul of the non blocking rule? should you pass ?
Yet again the FIA have a rule that is full of ifs, buts and maybes. Lewis, quite rightly has asked for clarification http://www.motorsport.com/f1/news/hamilton-calls-o...
Personally, I think it was marginal, the stewards need to decide if marginal is enough or not.
ETA, FIA International Sporting Code says:
ISC said:
This is a signal of danger and should be shown to drivers in two
ways with the following meanings:
- Single waved: Reduce your speed, do not overtake, and be
prepared to change direction. There is a hazard beside or
partly on the track.
- Double waved: Reduce your speed significantly, do not
overtake, and be prepared to change direction or stop.
There is a hazard wholly or partly blocking the track and/or
marshals working on or beside the track.
Yellow flags should normally be shown only at the marshal
post immediately preceding the hazard.
In some cases, however, the Clerk of the Course may order them
to be shown at more than one marshal post preceding an incident.
Overtaking is not permitted between the first yellow flag and the
green flag displayed after the incident.
Yellow flags should not be shown in the pit lane unless there is an
incident of which the driver should be made aware.
The Clerk of the Course or Race Director may impose a speed limit
on the full course or any section of the track when double yellow
flags are displayed during practice, qualifying practice or races.
• When a single speed limit is imposed on the full course,
this will be indicated with a single yellow flag and a board
indicating FCY (meaning “Full Course Yellow”). If appropriate,
double waved yellow flags will continue to be displayed at the
post prior to the incident.
• At races where a variable speed limit may be imposed on
the full course, this will be indicated with a single yellow flag
and a board indicating VSC (meaning “Virtual Safety Car”.)
If appropriate, double waved yellow flags will continue to be
displayed at the post prior to the incident.
• In races where a speed limit may be imposed on a section of
the track, the beginning and end of the sections will be clearly
marked by the side of the track, with a double yellow flag and
a board indicating SLOW (meaning “slow down”). They will
be displayed at each marshal post in the section. A single
waved yellow flag will be displayed at the post prior to that.
In every case, the end of the imposition of the speed limit will be
indicated by a green flag at the next marshal post, or at each
marshal post where appropriate. The sporting regulations for each
race or champ
So, Stewards have 2 issues to deal with:ways with the following meanings:
- Single waved: Reduce your speed, do not overtake, and be
prepared to change direction. There is a hazard beside or
partly on the track.
- Double waved: Reduce your speed significantly, do not
overtake, and be prepared to change direction or stop.
There is a hazard wholly or partly blocking the track and/or
marshals working on or beside the track.
Yellow flags should normally be shown only at the marshal
post immediately preceding the hazard.
In some cases, however, the Clerk of the Course may order them
to be shown at more than one marshal post preceding an incident.
Overtaking is not permitted between the first yellow flag and the
green flag displayed after the incident.
Yellow flags should not be shown in the pit lane unless there is an
incident of which the driver should be made aware.
The Clerk of the Course or Race Director may impose a speed limit
on the full course or any section of the track when double yellow
flags are displayed during practice, qualifying practice or races.
• When a single speed limit is imposed on the full course,
this will be indicated with a single yellow flag and a board
indicating FCY (meaning “Full Course Yellow”). If appropriate,
double waved yellow flags will continue to be displayed at the
post prior to the incident.
• At races where a variable speed limit may be imposed on
the full course, this will be indicated with a single yellow flag
and a board indicating VSC (meaning “Virtual Safety Car”.)
If appropriate, double waved yellow flags will continue to be
displayed at the post prior to the incident.
• In races where a speed limit may be imposed on a section of
the track, the beginning and end of the sections will be clearly
marked by the side of the track, with a double yellow flag and
a board indicating SLOW (meaning “slow down”). They will
be displayed at each marshal post in the section. A single
waved yellow flag will be displayed at the post prior to that.
In every case, the end of the imposition of the speed limit will be
indicated by a green flag at the next marshal post, or at each
marshal post where appropriate. The sporting regulations for each
race or champ
1) Define "Reduce your speed significantly".
2) This says no overtaking, but article 31.6 of the F1 sporting regulations says that no driver should unnecessarily impede another. Nico passed a car in the yellows, it was going very slowly and presumably the driver was doing their best to comply with this rule. Which rule takes precedence ?
Edited by Crafty_ on Saturday 23 July 19:04
Edited by Crafty_ on Saturday 23 July 19:04
Crafty_ said:
He passed one car still under yellows and imho wouldn't have been able to stop if the obstruction was still present on the track (he didn't know if it was or not). He was only a tenth slower than his previous lap apparently.
I've just watched it again, and I'm sure they're past the incident and into green (although I don't see any green lights) before he comes up on any other car. His lift was in T8, by the way, and not T9, where Alonso spun. If he'd passed another car under yellow he'd lose the lap as the minimum punishment.
He made a right horlicks of the first sector though - I haven't seen the time but he was all over the place.
Jez
Edited by Z3MCJez on Saturday 23 July 19:07
Crafty_ said:
He's been summoned: http://www.motorsport.com/f1/news/rosberg-summoned...
He did the absolute minimum required to comply with the rules, double yellows mean "slow down, be prepared to stop, no passing".
He passed one car still under yellows and imho wouldn't have been able to stop if the obstruction was still present on the track (he didn't know if it was or not). He was only a tenth slower than his previous lap apparently.
That said he did lift in to the left hander, a lift is generally what stewards look for.
So, it comes down to interpretation of the rules - if you should lift, how much should you lift ? how slow should you go until you see a green flag ? a tenth ? two tenths ? what if another car is going very slowly because they didn't want to fall foul of the non blocking rule? should you pass ?
Yet again the FIA have a rule that is full of ifs, buts and maybes. Lewis, quite rightly has asked for clarification http://www.motorsport.com/f1/news/hamilton-calls-o...
Personally, I think it was marginal, the stewards need to decide if marginal is enough or not.
He did the absolute minimum required to comply with the rules, double yellows mean "slow down, be prepared to stop, no passing".
He passed one car still under yellows and imho wouldn't have been able to stop if the obstruction was still present on the track (he didn't know if it was or not). He was only a tenth slower than his previous lap apparently.
That said he did lift in to the left hander, a lift is generally what stewards look for.
So, it comes down to interpretation of the rules - if you should lift, how much should you lift ? how slow should you go until you see a green flag ? a tenth ? two tenths ? what if another car is going very slowly because they didn't want to fall foul of the non blocking rule? should you pass ?
Yet again the FIA have a rule that is full of ifs, buts and maybes. Lewis, quite rightly has asked for clarification http://www.motorsport.com/f1/news/hamilton-calls-o...
Personally, I think it was marginal, the stewards need to decide if marginal is enough or not.
If he passed another car under yellows then that's it but you're the first to suggest that and I wouldn't have thought even the FIA would need 3 hours to think that over.
More likely the stewards have been told poor little Lewis wants to win tomorrow, stop nasty Nico from beating him.
Are there no depths to which F1 cannot sink?
Z3MCJez said:
My emphasis. This is where I really disagree. This is what killed Jules. This is why Alonso ran into a wreck at Interlagos. We've moved on - we don't have to tolerate this in an era of VSC. We don't have to put marshals in the line of fire. F1 should be setting an example so that everyone agrees that yellows are something to slow for. Not to flick the telemetry to show you've seen them, but to actually change things.
A good point well made. 
jbudgie said:
Would be to most people, sorry to see that you're a bit backward.
Can we save this kind of stuff till after the race, which is when a lot of us unsubscribe and let the children get on with their petty squabbles and insults. Or do we have to stay away from the thread in between the end of qualifying and the start of the race too? 
Edit: Not aimed at you specifically, jbudgie. It was a general comment.
Edited by ClockworkCupcake on Saturday 23 July 19:10
Z3MCJez said:
I've just watched it again, and I'm sure they're past the incident and into green (although I don't see any green lights) before he comes up on any other car. His lift, was in T8, by the way, and not T9, where Alonso spun.
If he'd passed another car under yellow he'd lose the lap as the minimum punishment.
He made a right horlicks of the first sector though - I haven't seen the time but he was all over the place.
Jez
Yeah just watched it again now. I don't see the green flag before he overtakes, I do see a light board showing nothing a little after the pass though.If he'd passed another car under yellow he'd lose the lap as the minimum punishment.
He made a right horlicks of the first sector though - I haven't seen the time but he was all over the place.
Jez
Putting aside driver preference and dislike, it is a sad indictment of the FIA and where their priorities lie that they are focused on kerbs and radio transmissions when the question of safety should still be foremost in their mind with the current court action by the Bianchi family.
The second I saw Alonso off the track my first thought was if he was ok, a few seconds later I saw it was just a spin. Surely drivers and officials should be thinking the same way.
The second I saw Alonso off the track my first thought was if he was ok, a few seconds later I saw it was just a spin. Surely drivers and officials should be thinking the same way.
rsbmw said:
Hypothetically, what's the penalty should the stewards not like the situation? Since it's a safety issue, probably a grid penalty rather than a deletion?
Deletion is first option I think, that means he would be placed by the next fastest lap he did in Q3.Speaking of which, CANAL+ made an interesting video: https://streamable.com/5ssk
hmm, as I said, marginal.
This is a tricky one. Have to give credit to Nico for the way he dealt with the traffic after (maybe one car was in) the yellow sector and through the rest of the lap. That was a pretty cool and collected bit of driving.
But I can't help thinking it's very hard for the Stewards to allow him keep the lap. Setting purple in the affected sector is always going to be hard to demonstrate you were prepared to stop. I'm also unsure of the excuse that it was only purple due to changeable evolving track conditions as this suggests Nico was having to explore unclear limits which sounds very unlike he was preparing to stop.
Whatever the outcome. I think Nico has shown once more that he is desperate to take this championship and will push every boundary to take it. I'm hoping he keeps his lap and we see a battle (ideally in changeable conditions) between the two mercs and the red bulls.
But I can't help thinking it's very hard for the Stewards to allow him keep the lap. Setting purple in the affected sector is always going to be hard to demonstrate you were prepared to stop. I'm also unsure of the excuse that it was only purple due to changeable evolving track conditions as this suggests Nico was having to explore unclear limits which sounds very unlike he was preparing to stop.
Whatever the outcome. I think Nico has shown once more that he is desperate to take this championship and will push every boundary to take it. I'm hoping he keeps his lap and we see a battle (ideally in changeable conditions) between the two mercs and the red bulls.
rsbmw said:
Hypothetically, what's the penalty should the stewards not like the situation? Since it's a safety issue, probably a grid penalty rather than a deletion?
How can they penalise Rosberg for doing what hulkenberg was judged to be ok for last race ?Not saying it's right, and the via need to set the expectation or implement an automated speed limit, but inconsistency ruines the races
rsbmw said:
Hypothetically, what's the penalty should the stewards not like the situation? Since it's a safety issue, probably a grid penalty rather than a deletion?
He could get that lap dq'd and be 2nd He could be sent to the back of the grid
He could get points on his licence
He could get dq'd from the event
He could get a single race ban or more
He's lucky he signed that new contract before this happened IMO
Z3MCJez said:
ERIKM400 said:
Right, so let's see if I get this...
If no one is allowed to set a fastest lap during the last minute of Q3 on a rapidly drying and improving track because Alonso had a spin and this gives Lewis Hamilton pole position handed on a plate then that's OK and proof of how he's the greatest racing driver ever.
But if Nico Rosberg sees an opportunity, lifting just enough not to get penalized by the FIA, and secures pole position, then he's cheating???
FFS, these guys are racing in what is supposed to be the ultimate series in motorsport, they're not going to give each other presents.
If you want everyone to slow down the same way under yellow flags, the FIA should impose a sector speed limit when yellow flags are waved instead of the arbitrary rule that states they have to lift "enough" under yellow.
My emphasis. This is where I really disagree. This is what killed Jules. This is why Alonso ran into a wreck at Interlagos. We've moved on - we don't have to tolerate this in an era of VSC. We don't have to put marshals in the line of fire. F1 should be setting an example so that everyone agrees that yellows are something to slow for. Not to flick the telemetry to show you've seen them, but to actually change things. If no one is allowed to set a fastest lap during the last minute of Q3 on a rapidly drying and improving track because Alonso had a spin and this gives Lewis Hamilton pole position handed on a plate then that's OK and proof of how he's the greatest racing driver ever.
But if Nico Rosberg sees an opportunity, lifting just enough not to get penalized by the FIA, and secures pole position, then he's cheating???
FFS, these guys are racing in what is supposed to be the ultimate series in motorsport, they're not going to give each other presents.
If you want everyone to slow down the same way under yellow flags, the FIA should impose a sector speed limit when yellow flags are waved instead of the arbitrary rule that states they have to lift "enough" under yellow.
Jez
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