The Official 2016 German Grand Prix Thread **Spoilers**

[Z3MCJez]

LaurasOtherHalf said:

It's an interesting theory re LH taking the penalty early. I can understand wanting to increase the lead into the summer break but let's be honest, that's not guaranteed. Nico could be on form or LH's Merc could st itself.

If I were LH, I think I'd rather take the punishment now and get it over with. Everyone expects NR to experience some reliability issues before the end of the year but it doesn't work like that does it? And if he doesn't I'd want as many races as possible in which to score good points

I feel that reliability has been similar between the two of them now. Nico maybe hasn't had the catastrophic failures, but he's been far from trouble free either. I think banking on it evening out by the end of the season is a fool's game.

He won't take a penalty here. Much better to take it at Monza and set the car up for speed. He'll get back to top 4 at least with that. Not necessarily the case here, although the run across the track (the new part of the circuit) is a good place to pass. After that, the stadium section is a nightmare ...

Jez

[Z3MCJez]

Dr Z said:

The link below seems to suggest that teams will have to use one set of Medium and Soft in the race, but I have never seen this info repeated anywhere else. Pirelli have never nominated two compounds to be run in the race like this during this year, so I'm confused. Even though the Super Soft and Medium are low working range tyres, it is very strange for 10 out of 11 teams to be so confident of racing the Medium tyre without even having a look in the practice sessions. Something doesn't quite add up.

http://www.pirelli.com/corporate/en/press/2016/05/...

Maybe they updated the link, but it now says:

These are the tyres that Pirelli has said must be used at some point in the race:
One set of P Zero White medium
One set of P Zero Yellow soft.
Each driver must have both these sets available for the race, and must use at least one of them.

So everyone is going to ignore the mediums, apart from, maybe, FI.

It's not very well worded, but then Pirelli mandated the use of only one compound (the hardest of the three) at one race. Only once, so far.

Jen

[Dr Z]

Z3MCJez said:

Maybe they updated the link, but it now says:

These are the tyres that Pirelli has said must be used at some point in the race:
One set of P Zero White medium
One set of P Zero Yellow soft.
Each driver must have both these sets available for the race, and must use at least one of them.

So everyone is going to ignore the mediums, apart from, maybe, FI.

It's not very well worded, but then Pirelli mandated the use of only one compound (the hardest of the three) at one race. Only once, so far.

Jen

May be they changed it, may be I didn't pay attention to the 'must use at least one of them' part.

In this case, the race strategy will be favouring a 2-stopper like this: SS/S/S. But I would think if the delta between the Soft and Medium is not too big for the 2nd race stint, a 2-stopper with SS/M/SS may work well too. In the 2014 race, the Red Bulls did a 3-stopper going with SS/S/SS/S. Some interesting variations. The practice sessions should give us some answers.

[EnglishTony]

Seems a bit daft, compelling teams to specify a tyre that they obviously aren't going to use. Might as well leave the mediums at the factory and save the transport costs. The race will be run on SS to start with and then the S as a 1 stopper i reckon.

[hairyben]

LaurasOtherHalf said:

It's an interesting theory re LH taking the penalty early. I can understand wanting to increase the lead into the summer break but let's be honest, that's not guaranteed. Nico could be on form or LH's Merc could st itself.

If I were LH, I think I'd rather take the punishment now and get it over with. Everyone expects NR to experience some reliability issues before the end of the year but it doesn't work like that does it? And if he doesn't I'd want as many races as possible in which to score good points

Theres a few good reasons why Lewis might not want to take penalties this weekend.

It's the German GP, which is the "home" race of both the mercedes teams chief sponsor and of his pseudo german team mate nico, winning his teams home race and beating nico on home soil are both big psychological incentives, and as stated so is a win/points stretch going into the summer break.

Also while engine development isn't breakneck they are improving them all the time, leaving it another 4-6 weeks could get Lewis a marginally better engine than if he takes one now, and if he take his seasons last engine he could find himself towards the end of the season facing a nico with an improved engine and when nicos on form that can be enough to make the difference.

[VolvoT5]

I hear they have decided to go against HALO for next year, but also they have discussed the radio ban and track limits, so I'm interested to see what happens this weekend.

Interesting update re: Verstappen vs Raikkonen - Perez has asked for clarification, Button has said what Max did was 'dangerous' and even Alonso has come out on Raikkonen's side saying the move was "illegal". So it seems like they are all getting on Max's case a bit, presumably this is as much about previous incidents as what happened at the last race, but again it will be interesting to see what happens.

edit: updated radio rules suggesting a more sensible approach.

Edited by VolvoT5 on Thursday 28th July 18:41

[cgt2]

VolvoT5 said:

I hear they have decided to go against HALO for next year, but also they have discussed the radio ban and track limits, so I'm interested to see what happens this weekend.

Interesting update re: Verstappen vs Raikkonen - Perez has asked for clarification, Button has said what Max did was 'dangerous' and even Alonso has come out on Raikkonen's side saying the move was "illegal". So it seems like they are all getting on Max's case a bit, presumably this is as much about previous incidents as what happened at the last race, but again it will be interesting to see what happens.

edit: updated radio rules suggesting a more sensible approach.

Edited by VolvoT5 on Thursday 28th July 18:41

Deja vu.. the drivers also ganged up on Max last year a couple of times (after Monaco from memory). Personally I have seen far worse from others so they are hypocrites. Much as I like Kimi some of his shenanigans in the past two years have been far more dangerous.

The real issue is that he is 18 years old and making several of them look very ordinary. You don't have to be a rocket scientist to see through the bullst.

[VolvoT5]

I'm not sure they are ganging up, to be fair you don't often hear Button, Raikkonen and Alonso moaning about other drivers do you? It is normally Nico, Vettel and Grosjean having a moan..... Some might argue because of the huge hype surrounding Verstappen he has been allowed to perhaps bend the rules a bit more than others? IDK, I don't think the incident was worth this much fuss I just think this is 18 months of minor annoyances boiling over and as much as I like Max I do think he will have to adapt his style a bit or cause a big accident bit eventually.

Oh and according to AMuS they are not going to penalise track limits now either.

Edited by VolvoT5 on Thursday 28th July 18:55

[cgt2]

VolvoT5 said:

I'm not sure they are ganging up, to be fair you don't often hear Button, Raikkonen and Alonso moaning about other drivers do you? It is normally Nico, Vettel and Grosjean having a moan..... Some might argue because of the huge hype surrounding Verstappen he has been allowed to perhaps bend the rules a bit more than others? IDK, I don't think the incident was worth this much fuss I just think this is 18 months of minor annoyances boiling over and as much as I like Max I do think he will have to adapt his style a bit or cause a big accident bit eventually.

Oh and according to AMuS they are not going to penalise track limits now either.

Edited by VolvoT5 on Thursday 28th July 18:55

I'm a big fan of Fernando nowadays but driving through the debris at Interlagos 2003 during a safety car at high speed without lifting is the most dangerous thing I have ever seen. And he was 4 years older than Max is now at the time.


And as for what Kimi did in Monaco this year..

As I said - hypocrites.

Edited by cgt2 on Thursday 28th July 19:19

Edited by cgt2 on Thursday 28th July 19:20

[VolvoT5]

cgt2 said:

I'm a big fan of Fernando nowadays but driving through the debris at Interlagos 2003 during a safety car at high speed without lifting is the most dangerous thing I have ever seen. And he was 4 years older than Max at the time.

As I said - hypocrites.

So doing something a bit reckless 13 years ago means he isn't allowed to comment on a safety issue now?

I dare say all F1 drivers have done something dangerous on track at one point or another....... but generally they do get penalised for it and learn from their mistakes.

I think the main issue is they feel Verstappen consistently adopts a style which is potentially dangerous and does not fit with how everyone else drives or the accepted interpretation of the rules, therefore they want things clarified.

[cheddar]

Dr Z said:

Thanks, hope you have a good one, but I'm not too optimistic for the race!

Why not?

And thanks for another quality thread opener

[EnglishTony]

As much as I admire May's talent he shouldn't be given the impression that he is allowed to do things that the rest of the field isn't.

Alonso, Button, Raikkonen and the rest had to be told too.

[cgt2]

VolvoT5 said:

So doing something a bit reckless 13 years ago means he isn't allowed to comment on a safety issue now?

Not what I said at all, of course he is and his views carry weight.

I said that I have seen the critics do far worse at an age where they had more experience than Max has now so there is a double standard if they are forgetting their own transgressions (in Kimi's case very recent).

In the absence of a penalty and a general view from experienced racers (not competing) that Max's defence was robust but on the borderline of just about OK then it's clear to me there's another agenda at play here as he is making some of them look stupid on track.

It's the same thing we see all the time in the corporate world. A young executive joins a firm, performs to a very high level straight away and ruffles the feathers of the more established people who were maybe just taking it a little bit easier or thought their age and experience meant they didn't have to push it to the limit in their performance.

It will be very interesting to see it play out over the course of the year. And personally I think you are wrong about Max causing a big shunt in future as there are others on the grid with a far bigger element of desperation in their driving whereas Max has generally been pretty smooth (especially in the wet recently) but let's see.

[VolvoT5]

cgt2 said:

Not what I said at all, of course he is and his views carry weight.

I said that I have seen the critics do far worse at an age where they had more experience than Max has now so there is a double standard if they are forgetting their own transgressions (in Kimi's case very recent).

In the absence of a penalty and a general view from experienced racers (not competing) that Max's defence was robust but on the borderline of just about OK then it's clear to me there's another agenda at play here as he is making some of them look stupid on track.

It's the same thing we see all the time in the corporate world. A young executive joins a firm, performs to a very high level straight away and ruffles the feathers of the more established people who were maybe just taking it a little bit easier or thought their age and experience meant they didn't have to push it to the limit in their performance.

It will be very interesting to see it play out over the course of the year. And personally I think you are wrong about Max causing a big shunt in future as there are others on the grid with a far bigger element of desperation in their driving but let's see.

So what if those drivers made mistakes in their early years then they will have been penalised at the time, so I'm not sure what your point there is? It doesn't mean they can't point out something wrong with another driver now.

Besides which all drivers will get it wrong from time to time, but when someone shows a consistent pattern of driving behaviour that either isn't acceptable or is too 'borderline' they normally get slapped down for it.

You quote the 'general view from experienced racers' saying it is OK, but the likes of Brundle, Button, Alonso, Raikkonen and Perez would all fit into that category and they don't seem to think it was OK?

Anyway, will have to agree to disagree.

[cgt2]

VolvoT5 said:

So what if those drivers made mistakes in their early years then they will have been penalised at the time, so I'm not sure what your point there is? It doesn't mean they can't point out something wrong with another driver now.

Besides which all drivers will get it wrong from time to time, but when someone shows a consistent pattern of driving behaviour that either isn't acceptable or is too 'borderline' they normally get slapped down for it.

You quote the 'general view from experienced racers' saying it is OK, but the likes of Brundle, Button, Alonso, Raikkonen and Perez would all fit into that category and they don't seem to think it was OK?

Anyway, will have to agree to disagree.

As I said all experienced ex-racers who have commented apart from Brundle thought it was ok.

Those on the grid obviously have an interest in undermining an opponent who is threatening their reputation with far less experience than them.

Kimi has done some stupid stuff recently (irrespective of his own age and experience) so all Max needs to do is take a laptop and pull up those moments in his defence. That will be a lively (and short) argument.

We will indeed and time will tell.

[VolvoT5]

cgt2 said:

Kimi has done some stupid stuff recently (irrespective of his own age and experience) so all Max needs to do is take a laptop and pull up those moments in his defence. That will be a lively (and short) argument.

How does pointing out another driver's transgressions excuse him of his own? Also I believe Jacques Villeneuve was critical as well.

[LaurasOtherHalf]

hairyben said:

LaurasOtherHalf said:

It's an interesting theory re LH taking the penalty early. I can understand wanting to increase the lead into the summer break but let's be honest, that's not guaranteed. Nico could be on form or LH's Merc could st itself.

If I were LH, I think I'd rather take the punishment now and get it over with. Everyone expects NR to experience some reliability issues before the end of the year but it doesn't work like that does it? And if he doesn't I'd want as many races as possible in which to score good points

Theres a few good reasons why Lewis might not want to take penalties this weekend.

It's the German GP, which is the "home" race of both the mercedes teams chief sponsor and of his pseudo german team mate nico, winning his teams home race and beating nico on home soil are both big psychological incentives, and as stated so is a win/points stretch going into the summer break.

Also while engine development isn't breakneck they are improving them all the time, leaving it another 4-6 weeks could get Lewis a marginally better engine than if he takes one now, and if he take his seasons last engine he could find himself towards the end of the season facing a nico with an improved engine and when nicos on form that can be enough to make the difference.

Excellent points well made, I've changed my mind and agree with you

[cgt2]

VolvoT5 said:

How does pointing out another driver's transgressions excuse him of his own? Also I believe Jacques Villeneuve was critical as well.

And again, I did not say it excuses his own, and excuse what because I don't think he did anything wrong and the stewards thought so too. I said it would illustrate the hypocrisy of Kimi's position. I was giving a hypothetical example of what Max could do, that does not mean he WILL do that. He actually seems to care far less about it than you and I

If a politician criticises his opponent yet behaves exactly the same way then most people would consider them as hypocritical or having some kind of agenda and dismiss their opinion as not valid. I believe there is an agenda here because the other drivers are being shown up.

The best racing in the last three events has involved Verstappen. He is a spotty little kid. F1 is full of inflated pompous egos. Not so hard to work out what is going on.

Before you ask further rhetorical questions let me say this is MY opinion.

Jacques Villeneuve, oh please. He has zero crediblity, have you heard some of the utter claptrap he has come out with in recent years? The only person more out of touch with F1 than him is the lady who serves teas in the Manor Marussia motorhome

A fairly detailed analysis of the events posted here at the bottom of this article.

http://www.autosport.com/news/report.php/id/125498...

And onboard videos here which illustrate Kimi did not leave himself anywhere to go.

https://vimeo.com/176500494

Edited by cgt2 on Thursday 28th July 23:18

Edited by cgt2 on Thursday 28th July 23:19

[The Moose]

Z3MCJez said:

Dr Z said:

The link below seems to suggest that teams will have to use one set of Medium and Soft in the race, but I have never seen this info repeated anywhere else. Pirelli have never nominated two compounds to be run in the race like this during this year, so I'm confused. Even though the Super Soft and Medium are low working range tyres, it is very strange for 10 out of 11 teams to be so confident of racing the Medium tyre without even having a look in the practice sessions. Something doesn't quite add up.

http://www.pirelli.com/corporate/en/press/2016/05/...

Maybe they updated the link, but it now says:

These are the tyres that Pirelli has said must be used at some point in the race:
One set of P Zero White medium
One set of P Zero Yellow soft.
Each driver must have both these sets available for the race, and must use at least one of them.

So everyone is going to ignore the mediums, apart from, maybe, FI.

It's not very well worded, but then Pirelli mandated the use of only one compound (the hardest of the three) at one race. Only once, so far.

Jen

I just had a look at the Google Cache and it looks like it was there 5 days or so ago:



I misread it the same as you too!

[BaronVonVaderham]

cgt2 said:

Deja vu.. the drivers also ganged up on Max last year a couple of times (after Monaco from memory). Personally I have seen far worse from others so they are hypocrites. Much as I like Kimi some of his shenanigans in the past two years have been far more dangerous.

The real issue is that he is 18 years old and making several of them look very ordinary. You don't have to be a rocket scientist to see through the bullst.

No, he moves around very late in the braking phase. Read the rules.