The Official 2016 German Grand Prix Thread **Spoilers**

[williamp]

NM62 said:

williamp said:

From my memory ( was it really 17 years ago!!) Irvine lost the WDC when Ferrari decided to bring three tyres to the pit stop

As another aside, anyone rememver the Tv programme about Irvine? I remember them filming him going home to Ireland and his overalls on the washing line, and him riding a scooter into Monza and chatting up some girls in a Maser 3200GT. Not my favourite driver, but I loved his lifestyle!!

Yes I remember that - the boat - cruising around the coast ( north west Italy ) the model girl friend with whom he had a daughter - they weren't together but did holidays for the young daughter- his sister calling him Edmund - the Ferrari 288 GTO in the property in Ireland - he seemed genuine and I warmed to him - didn't he invite the girls to a party and managed to add another notch?

Found it!
http://www.veoh.com/watch/v1213694YmZrwMWY

That's my evening sorted.

[ClockworkCupcake]

cgt2 said:

The only thing he did (or did not as it turned out) was not want to come back. So he had an 'impure thought'. That was it. The media made a huge drama out of it as usual. But when he did come back he did his best to help Irvine, gifting him Malaysia.

From Wiki: {snip}

Well, I'm not going to argue about it. That was my recollection of my feelings at the time, rightly or wrongly. And I am by no means a Schumi-hater as you allude to in a later post.

[SmoothCriminal]

[cgt2]

ClockworkCupcake said:

Well, I'm not going to argue about it. That was my recollection of my feelings at the time, rightly or wrongly. And I am by no means a Schumi-hater as you allude to in a later post.

I wasn't saying you were but was giving an example of how the media turned everything against him whereas in this case he did a lot to help Irvine.

[M3ax]

dafeller said:

I think that you're being generous: he understands perfectly and that's why he claimed to be applying 'full lock' when he hadn't even tried. He knows the appropriate thing to do is maintain a racing line and he thinks he doesn't gain enough advantage by doing so.

If NR had taken the apex then pushed MV wide on exit we would be applauding a great overtake. To me it seems that he just doesn't have the confidence to do that. I'm surprised because DR pushed him wide earlier in the race in a legitimate move and I would have thought he would have learnt from that (and learnt from the times LH has pushed him wide while NR was on the outside also). NR seems to be very good at running a good car fast but he lacks the wheel to wheel brain. He's no numpty but he needs to take step back and maybe remember his carting roots and drive his own race rather than try and emulate the guy who has been beating him over the last couple of years.

[ZX10R NIN]

Nothing to do with F1 but I thought I'd put some links to some racing seeing as we have a bit of a break.
Indycars

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DENMxtAi8Uc&li...

V8 Supercars

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=I2e1LEM5GbQ&li...

Nascar

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_fe2rLmjDx8

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5QV1_HhTYIw

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wMiT9JOXKRs

[lee_fr200]

i liked irvine alot and i think my gma got me that video where they followed him around!

I've got quite a expensive picture on the landing of irvine and schumacher winning at monaco in "99

[Vaud]

cgt2 said:

ClockworkCupcake said:

Well, I'm not going to argue about it. That was my recollection of my feelings at the time, rightly or wrongly. And I am by no means a Schumi-hater as you allude to in a later post.

I wasn't saying you were but was giving an example of how the media turned everything against him whereas in this case he did a lot to help Irvine.

British media. Other media generally treated him differently.

[zebra]

ZX10R NIN said:

Nothing to do with F1 but I thought I'd put some links to some racing seeing as we have a bit of a break.
Indycars

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DENMxtAi8Uc&li...

V8 Supercars

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=I2e1LEM5GbQ&li...

Nascar

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_fe2rLmjDx8

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5QV1_HhTYIw

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wMiT9JOXKRs

You're right, nothing to do with F1 _ stick them in the youtube thread where they belong.

[Gary C]

cgt2 said:

Gary C said:

Yes, that's when I really lost respect for Schumacher, he could have enabled Ferrari to get a wdc that year, but because it wasn't him, he did the bare minimum. If he had finished higher and took points away from the eventual winner, Irvine would of had it.

What a sod.

Hold on, let me understand this.

Schumacher came back for two races at the end of 1999.

You lost respect for Schumacher because he handed Irvine the win in Malaysia and then Irvine crashed in quali in Japan scuppering his own chance at the championship.

So moving aside and gifting his win is doing the bare minimum. And I suppose Schumacher magnetically forced Irvine to hit the wall in Japan?

I love it when people make bold statements completely forgetting what actually happened..

He may not have liked doing it but Schumacher did play the team game. So you are angry at him for what he was thinking..?? Wow!

Edited by cgt2 on Tuesday 2nd August 14:41

Yep, I believe Schumacher was faster than Hakkinen all weekend and could have taken the win in Japan. That would have secured Irvine the wdc.

Typical Schumacher, made himself look good but scuppered irvines chances.

Oh, and I love it when people make bold assumptions, completely without any knowledge of the other person.

[cgt2]

Gary C said:

Yep, I believe Schumacher was faster than Hakkinen all weekend and could have taken the win in Japan. That would have secured Irvine the wdc.

Typical Schumacher, made himself look good but scuppered irvines chances.

Oh, and I love it when people make bold assumptions, completely without any knowledge of the other person.

Ok..

And I also think that Jenson Button was quicker than both of them on that day. But he wasn't in F1 at the time. What an absolute selfish b**tard, I hate him for that

Arguing aside, please don't tell me you think Irvine was a higher calibre driver than Hakkinen? We are really entering the Twilight Zone then..

[hairyben]

Gary C said:

cgt2 said:

Gary C said:

Yes, that's when I really lost respect for Schumacher, he could have enabled Ferrari to get a wdc that year, but because it wasn't him, he did the bare minimum. If he had finished higher and took points away from the eventual winner, Irvine would of had it.

What a sod.

Hold on, let me understand this.

Schumacher came back for two races at the end of 1999.

You lost respect for Schumacher because he handed Irvine the win in Malaysia and then Irvine crashed in quali in Japan scuppering his own chance at the championship.

So moving aside and gifting his win is doing the bare minimum. And I suppose Schumacher magnetically forced Irvine to hit the wall in Japan?

I love it when people make bold statements completely forgetting what actually happened..

He may not have liked doing it but Schumacher did play the team game. So you are angry at him for what he was thinking..?? Wow!

Edited by cgt2 on Tuesday 2nd August 14:41

[b]
Yep, I believe Schumacher was faster than Hakkinen all weekend and could have taken the win in Japan. That would have secured Irvine the wdc.

Typical Schumacher, made himself look good but scuppered irvines chances.

Oh, and I love it when people make bold assumptions, [/b] completely without any knowledge of the other person.

lol.

Im no fan of schumacher, but maybe after eddie stuffed up in qualli after schumacher doing a sterling team job of orchestrating the previous race for his benefit he just thought he didnt deserve being gifting the championship. Hakkinen was one of the only drivers schumacher really respected wasnt he?

[cgt2]

hairyben said:

lol.

Im no fan of schumacher, but maybe after eddie stuffed up in qualli after schumacher doing a sterling team job of orchestrating the previous race for his benefit he just thought he didnt deserve being gifting the championship. Hakkinen was one of the only drivers schumacher really respected wasnt he?

Precisely. Irvine had been handed one win by Salo and one by Schumacher. He then put it in the wall in Japan in the crucial decider whilst Hakkinen had fought hard all year. Schumacher later said there was a huge mutual respect between him and Hakkinen.

Don't forget Mika had pretty much had a life ending crash in Australia and how he recovered and came back with the speed he did (comprehensively beating Coulthard) was a very impressive testament to his determination. I think Mika is underrated for that achievement alone, leaving aside his titles.

To then suggest that Irvine should have been handed the title on a plate after inheriting two wins and f***ing it up at the crucial race to me is preposterous, apologies if this offends the previous poster. Irvine was never top drawer as the remainder of his career as a Jag journeyman showed.

[Flooble]

Just out of interest, has anyone got an analysis for why Rosberg couldn't close up on Verstappen following his penalty? He had about a 0.5 second per lap advantage in the practice sessions, so even an 8 second penalty should have been disposed of within 16 laps.

I'm wondering if the Mercedes doesn't have the advantage so much anymore. Hamilton's "oh I turned my engine down" could be a bit of sandbagging ...

[cgt2]

Flooble said:

Just out of interest, has anyone got an analysis for why Rosberg couldn't close up on Verstappen following his penalty? He had about a 0.5 second per lap advantage in the practice sessions, so even an 8 second penalty should have been disposed of within 16 laps.

I'm wondering if the Mercedes doesn't have the advantage so much anymore. Hamilton's "oh I turned my engine down" could be a bit of sandbagging ...

Christian Horner is saying Red Bull are now 0.3 seconds behind on pure pace. I think it's a bit more but they are definitely closer especially in race trim.

[anonymous-user]

Flooble said:

Just out of interest, has anyone got an analysis for why Rosberg couldn't close up on Verstappen following his penalty? He had about a 0.5 second per lap advantage in the practice sessions, so even an 8 second penalty should have been disposed of within 16 laps.

I'm wondering if the Mercedes doesn't have the advantage so much anymore. Hamilton's "oh I turned my engine down" could be a bit of sandbagging ...

I **might** be wrong, but weren't the RBs on super softs and Rosberg on softs at that point?

[Gary C]

cgt2 said:

Gary C said:

Yep, I believe Schumacher was faster than Hakkinen all weekend and could have taken the win in Japan. That would have secured Irvine the wdc.

Typical Schumacher, made himself look good but scuppered irvines chances.

Oh, and I love it when people make bold assumptions, completely without any knowledge of the other person.

Ok..

And I also think that Jenson Button was quicker than both of them on that day. But he wasn't in F1 at the time. What an absolute selfish b**tard, I hate him for that

Arguing aside, please don't tell me you think Irvine was a higher calibre driver than Hakkinen? We are really entering the Twilight Zone then..

Oh yes !

Put them both at a party

But no, of course Hakkinen was a deserving champion, but I watched that last race(And most of the others) and Schumacher, despite the race before just did not challenge. Remember, Ferrari really needed that wdc, the previous years were dire (so much worse than today, remember that driveshaft popping out ?) and Schumacher really brought the team (as history went on to prove) right back.

He just was not willing in that last race to really push hard for the win, despite pole. The car was up to it, the driver was up to it, watching, it was a lacklustre performance. I may have been 'just one of those things' but he was proved in later years to not being averse to, let's say 'sod my team mate, sod everyone'

[cgt2]

Gary C said:

Oh yes !

Put them both at a party

But no, of course Hakkinen was a deserving champion, but I watched that last race(And most of the others) and Schumacher, despite the race before just did not challenge. Remember, Ferrari really needed that wdc, the previous years were dire (so much worse than today, remember that driveshaft popping out ?) and Schumacher really brought the team (as history went on to prove) right back.

He just was not willing in that last race to really push hard for the win, despite pole. The car was up to it, the driver was up to it, watching, it was a lacklustre performance. I may have been 'just one of those things' but he was proved in later years to not being averse to, let's say 'sod my team mate, sod everyone'

Honestly my friend, I can't think of a world champion driver who wasn't ultra selfish. It's that mentality that makes them winners and something that I personally admire them for. It's no different if you are going for a contract, you will certainly not give anything away to a business rival, and the best F1 drivers take that mentality to an extreme.

In the fun stakes yes Irvine was ahead but I think Hakkinen was an all time great. But a very quiet guy so perhaps people don't view him as such. The sheer violence of the accident in Australia is pretty shocking even when seen today and the amount of blood in the photos afterwards was horrible. I can't imagine the kind of mental strength it took to come back from that and become a champion within two years, just like Lauda.

Also remember Irvine was already leaving Ferrari so if he had won the WDC he would have taken the No.1 to Shaaaaaaguar. I think he had fallen out with Jean Todt when asking for a lot more money than Ferrari felt he was worth.

Interestingly, Irvine has made far more money since he left F1 with very shrewd investments.

[Gary C]

cgt2 said:

Gary C said:

Oh yes !

Put them both at a party

But no, of course Hakkinen was a deserving champion, but I watched that last race(And most of the others) and Schumacher, despite the race before just did not challenge. Remember, Ferrari really needed that wdc, the previous years were dire (so much worse than today, remember that driveshaft popping out ?) and Schumacher really brought the team (as history went on to prove) right back.

He just was not willing in that last race to really push hard for the win, despite pole. The car was up to it, the driver was up to it, watching, it was a lacklustre performance. I may have been 'just one of those things' but he was proved in later years to not being averse to, let's say 'sod my team mate, sod everyone'

Honestly my friend, I can't think of a world champion driver who wasn't ultra selfish. It's that mentality that makes them winners and something that I personally admire them for. It's no different if you are going for a contract, you will certainly not give anything away to a business rival, and the best F1 drivers take that mentality to an extreme.

In the fun stakes yes Irvine was ahead but I think Hakkinen was an all time great. But a very quiet guy so perhaps people don't view him as such. The sheer violence of the accident in Australia is pretty shocking even when seen today and the amount of blood in the photos afterwards was horrible. I can't imagine the kind of mental strength it took to come back from that and become a champion within two years, just like Lauda.

Also remember Irvine was already leaving Ferrari so if he had won the WDC he would have taken the No.1 to Shaaaaaaguar. I think he had fallen out with Jean Todt when asking for a lot more money than Ferrari felt he was worth.

Interestingly, Irvine has made far more money since he left F1 with very shrewd investments.

It was funny. Didn't mind really that Irvine lost. Liked mika and he deserved the win but had spent so long waiting for another ferrari wdc and for it to be within reach!

He made up for it in the next few years though.

[Dr Z]

Flooble said:

Just out of interest, has anyone got an analysis for why Rosberg couldn't close up on Verstappen following his penalty? He had about a 0.5 second per lap advantage in the practice sessions, so even an 8 second penalty should have been disposed of within 16 laps.

I'm wondering if the Mercedes doesn't have the advantage so much anymore. Hamilton's "oh I turned my engine down" could be a bit of sandbagging ...

I don't think Rosberg had that much of an advantage. The Red Bull was a match for the Mercedes on the Soft tyre on similar fuel loads. From what I've seen in this race, I'd say the Mercedes superiority is pretty much on heavier fuel loads where they can look after the tyres much better and go faster. The closest to Mercedes in heavy fuel loads was actually the Ferrari.

I posted the laptime chart earlier, but a bit of work on the 3rd and 4th race stints can reveal how much the drivers were pushing. A quick linear regression of that data reveals this:



Color coding: Red (HAM); Blue (ROS); Green (VES); Purple (RIC); Orange (VET); Black (RAI).

Because the Pirellis degrade if you lean on them, the slope of the stint corresponds to the degradation rate and this tells you how much was taken out of the tyres. The steeper the slope, the harder you are pushing on the tyres through the stint. If the slope was a flat line, it indicates that the stint was driven well off the limit of the tyres. An aside: if you look at the Bridgestone tyre stints circa 2010, you tend to get negative slopes when leaning on the tyres (primarily due to fuel loads coming down), whereas with the Pirellis it's a positive slope i.e. laptimes get slower the more you push on them, overcoming the fuel effect.

So what can we deduce from this? I'd say Rosberg was pushing hard on his tyres (Used Soft) in the final stint, as was Verstappen (Used Super Soft). But the lower fuel loads meant that the performance difference between the Soft and Super Soft was at the expected levels and so, Verstappen could control the gap relying on the bigger tyre performance delta.

It also looks like Rosberg was pushing twice as hard as Hamilton but, Hamilton was doing a shorter final stint than Rosberg and had new Softs vs Rosberg on used ones. Even so, there wasn't a marked difference between the two Mercedes cars. It makes it clear where Ferrari are, interestingly enough, as both Ferrari cars were on Softs for the final stint. About 0.3-0.4s/lap on pure pace in the 4th stint.

Interesting also was the 3rd stint, when Hamilton was on brand new Super Softs vs Rosberg on new Softs. They were driving at similar degradation rates and the Super Soft vs Soft delta was 0.3s/lap. The super softs can be driven much harder. The magic number for the Pirellis seems to be 0.1. If a stint was driven at that deg rate, you are at the absolute limit of the tyres. FWIW, these were the degradation rates (slope) for the different stints for the top six cars in this race:

Driver	1st stint	2nd stint	3rd stint	4th stint
Hamilton	-0.053 ± 0.018	0.019 ± 0.012	0.034 ± 0.031	0.028 ± 0.029
Rosberg	-0.05 ± 0.05	0.054 ± 0.031	0.028 ± 0.021	0.064 ± 0.014
Ricciardo	0.0014 ± 0.021	0.055 ± 0.0072	0.1 ± 0.04	0.11 ± 0.017
Verstappen	0.028 ± 0.025	0.063 ± 0.013	-0.00069 ± 0.022	0.1 ± 0.021
Vettel	-0.025 ± 0.02	0.11 ± 0.013	-0.0058 ± 0.019	0.075 ± 0.012
Raikkonen	0.0015 ± 0.017	0.087 ± 0.0075	0.075 ± 0.02	0.043 ± 0.013

Edited by Dr Z on Wednesday 3rd August 13:12