The Official 2016 German Grand Prix Thread **Spoilers**
Discussion
hairyben said:
groomi said:
Wow, PH'er in rude post because he can't accept a difference of opinion shocker. 
My opinion is based on watching the overhead replay in that clip. If the first move by Max was trying to turn in as you say, then he must have been intending to cut over the grass and drive though the barrier on the inside of the corner.
What ARE you on about? My opinion is based on watching the overhead replay in that clip. If the first move by Max was trying to turn in as you say, then he must have been intending to cut over the grass and drive though the barrier on the inside of the corner.
If you look at the long high shot from the rear on the replay you can clearly see verstappen begin a turn in, you can observe the laid down rubber on track, on what is to 21 drivers the racing line, which they both pass over. Nico is already blocking him, which is fine at that point, its then running him off the track that is the issue.
This argument (sex?) needs badly overlaid screen shots of the incident:
Technically Nico ran Max off the track on corner exit, but his approach was the same as in Austria. If it wasn't for Max turning in to take the corner making Nico to change trajectory, I think he would have done exactly same as he did in Austria.
I don't believe Max moved under braking; the pic doesn't show clearly as the camera zoomed out in the shot but his turn in point would have placed him to take the apex perfectly...he's entitled to do that because he didn't expect Nico to divebomb him. Thankfully he bails out as he sees Nico coming.
I was prepared to give Nico the benefit of the doubt in Austria as I thought maybe it was an act of desperation to keep the win from slipping away, but now I'm not sure. I get the feeling that Nico really doesn't like to engage in prolonged wheel-to-wheel battles and so prefers to get the move done in one corner and be done with it. Whilst his trajectory into the corner placed him to hit the apex perfectly and run wide on exit, Max was already positioning to take a tight exit--to take the battle to the next corner. The only way Nico's move makes sense is if he intended to cut Max off from his intended line. The way he did it looks so blatant that, I suspect the Stewards didn't have a choice in considering it a racing incident.
Technically Nico ran Max off the track on corner exit, but his approach was the same as in Austria. If it wasn't for Max turning in to take the corner making Nico to change trajectory, I think he would have done exactly same as he did in Austria.
I don't believe Max moved under braking; the pic doesn't show clearly as the camera zoomed out in the shot but his turn in point would have placed him to take the apex perfectly...he's entitled to do that because he didn't expect Nico to divebomb him. Thankfully he bails out as he sees Nico coming.
I was prepared to give Nico the benefit of the doubt in Austria as I thought maybe it was an act of desperation to keep the win from slipping away, but now I'm not sure. I get the feeling that Nico really doesn't like to engage in prolonged wheel-to-wheel battles and so prefers to get the move done in one corner and be done with it. Whilst his trajectory into the corner placed him to hit the apex perfectly and run wide on exit, Max was already positioning to take a tight exit--to take the battle to the next corner. The only way Nico's move makes sense is if he intended to cut Max off from his intended line. The way he did it looks so blatant that, I suspect the Stewards didn't have a choice in considering it a racing incident.
VladD said:
I think Max did make a little move in the braking zone, and not for the first time. This would force Nico onto a tighter line and give him to opportunity of the cut back. I think Nico knew that and took the opportunity away. Nice idea, very badly executed.
My recollection is that Max was starting to move over to clip the apex when Nico steamed in and (I was impressed to say the least) Max saw him coming (considering it was a Looooong way back) and stayed out longer, then when he ran out of road started to turn.Also in the press pen - Max was told Nico said he was on full lock and he said "no he wasn't, I could see his gloves"..............
VladD said:
I think Max did make a little move in the braking zone, and not for the first time. This would force Nico onto a tighter line and give him to opportunity of the cut back. I think Nico knew that and took the opportunity away. Nice idea, very badly executed.
You're right, I see it now. The turn-in points on the qualifying lap and also the turn-in points in the race by a few others, is just past the third (50m) marker in the braking zone. Verstappen starts to turn/move just past the 2nd one.ETA: Fixed to Non-drum brake marker distance
Edited by Dr Z on Thursday 4th August 14:58
Dr Z said:
You're right, I see it now. The turn-in points on the qualifying lap and also the turn-in points in the race by a few others, is just past the third (500m) marker in the braking zone. Verstappen starts to turn/move just past the 2nd one.
It was the same little jink that had Kimi riled in the previous race.Oh, and I think it's the 50m board, not 500m, unless they've gone back to drum brakes.
Edited by VladD on Thursday 4th August 14:47
VladD said:
Dr Z said:
You're right, I see it now. The turn-in points on the qualifying lap and also the turn-in points in the race by a few others, is just past the third (500m) marker in the braking zone. Verstappen starts to turn/move just past the 2nd one.
It was the same little jink that had Kimi riled in the previous race.Oh, and I think it's the 50m board, not 500m, unless they've gone back to drum brakes.
DC picked up on it last race, commenting that he reacts once the attacker makes the move. It looks like it here too. Questionable race craft.
NJK44 said:
Dr Z said:
Fixed.
DC picked up on it last race, commenting that he reacts once the attacker makes the move. It looks like it here too. Questionable race craft.
It works though. DC picked up on it last race, commenting that he reacts once the attacker makes the move. It looks like it here too. Questionable race craft.
Dr Z said:
VladD said:
Dr Z said:
You're right, I see it now. The turn-in points on the qualifying lap and also the turn-in points in the race by a few others, is just past the third (500m) marker in the braking zone. Verstappen starts to turn/move just past the 2nd one.
It was the same little jink that had Kimi riled in the previous race.Oh, and I think it's the 50m board, not 500m, unless they've gone back to drum brakes.
DC picked up on it last race, commenting that he reacts once the attacker makes the move. It looks like it here too. Questionable race craft.
hairyben said:
I've watching whats available a few times and none of the angles are perfect and tell slightly differing stories, you could say he starts the turn in a fraction early - it's a pretty marginal though IMO, although comparing the line with other laps might be telling. The thing is he jinks back and is already out of it before rosberg is even alongside - think he was honestly surprised - and was probably already looking to get a switchback or for rosberg to outbrake himself.
I think you're underestimating Max, because he pulled exactly the same move on Kimi. A slight right turn and then straighten up again. In my opinion it's a deliberate defensive tactic.VladD said:
hairyben said:
I've watching whats available a few times and none of the angles are perfect and tell slightly differing stories, you could say he starts the turn in a fraction early - it's a pretty marginal though IMO, although comparing the line with other laps might be telling. The thing is he jinks back and is already out of it before rosberg is even alongside - think he was honestly surprised - and was probably already looking to get a switchback or for rosberg to outbrake himself.
I think you're underestimating Max, because he pulled exactly the same move on Kimi. A slight right turn and then straighten up again. In my opinion it's a deliberate defensive tactic.hairyben said:
It was borderline and ugly, but I'm struggling to see a clear rule breach.
As did the stewards.Interesting to see the difference when Max is borderline he pulls it off, when Rosberg is borderline (or even not) he makes a right balls up of it. If you didn't know the ages of the respective drivers you wouldn't necessarily think the more experienced one was in the silver car
I was wondering if there is one clean, decisive and outstanding move that Rosberg has pulled over his entire F1 career. Not hating, just genuinely interested if he has ever made one as I can't think of a single occasion. His old man certainly pulled a few.
hairyben said:
A defensive move then taking the line for the corner? Isn't one "defend" allowed? He waited for kimi to feign right before blocking once (thats okay right?), kimi tried left only for max to retake the line for the corner (still okay?), kimi then tried a second switch back behind him, misjudged the dive too close and pretty much did his own front wing IMO. It was borderline and ugly, but I'm struggling to see a clear rule breach.
There were two seperate incidents with Kimi though. I thought the first one was right on the limit, and I think you're referring to that one. The other incident was in to T1, when Verstappen moved as he was braking, once he saw Kimi was going for the inside. That looks more like the incident with Nico.It's here under Part 3:
https://www.formula1.com/en/latest/features/2016/7...
hairyben said:
VladD said:
hairyben said:
I've watching whats available a few times and none of the angles are perfect and tell slightly differing stories, you could say he starts the turn in a fraction early - it's a pretty marginal though IMO, although comparing the line with other laps might be telling. The thing is he jinks back and is already out of it before rosberg is even alongside - think he was honestly surprised - and was probably already looking to get a switchback or for rosberg to outbrake himself.
I think you're underestimating Max, because he pulled exactly the same move on Kimi. A slight right turn and then straighten up again. In my opinion it's a deliberate defensive tactic.As for Kimi, I was talking about the other move, into the hairpin. The one you mention was very messy, but I'd need to watch it again.
I guess in some respects, from a drivers standpoint, you need to be able to trust those around you. If you were in the position to put a pass on Max, how confident would you be that he wouldn't do something that might cause an accident?
Edit: Dr. Z beat me to it, I got interrupted mid-post.
Edited by VladD on Thursday 4th August 17:51
Dr Z said:
There were two seperate incidents with Kimi though. I thought the first one was right on the limit, and I think you're referring to that one. The other incident was in to T1, when Verstappen moved as he was braking, once he saw Kimi was going for the inside. That looks more like the incident with Nico.
It's here under Part 3:
https://www.formula1.com/en/latest/features/2016/7...
Ah okay I'd forgotten about that one aftrer the fun of the other incidentIt's here under Part 3:
https://www.formula1.com/en/latest/features/2016/7...
TBF I can see why it'd annoy but the kid does play well with exactly how much keeps it arguable/ambiguous doesn't he?
hairyben said:
Dr Z said:
There were two seperate incidents with Kimi though. I thought the first one was right on the limit, and I think you're referring to that one. The other incident was in to T1, when Verstappen moved as he was braking, once he saw Kimi was going for the inside. That looks more like the incident with Nico.
It's here under Part 3:
https://www.formula1.com/en/latest/features/2016/7...
Ah okay I'd forgotten about that one aftrer the fun of the other incidentIt's here under Part 3:
https://www.formula1.com/en/latest/features/2016/7...
TBF I can see why it'd annoy but the kid does play well with exactly how much keeps it arguable/ambiguous doesn't he?
hairyben said:
Dr Z said:
There were two seperate incidents with Kimi though. I thought the first one was right on the limit, and I think you're referring to that one. The other incident was in to T1, when Verstappen moved as he was braking, once he saw Kimi was going for the inside. That looks more like the incident with Nico.
It's here under Part 3:
https://www.formula1.com/en/latest/features/2016/7...
Ah okay I'd forgotten about that one aftrer the fun of the other incidentIt's here under Part 3:
https://www.formula1.com/en/latest/features/2016/7...
TBF I can see why it'd annoy but the kid does play well with exactly how much keeps it arguable/ambiguous doesn't he?
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