There are Hamilton Fanboys and there are F1 fans.
Discussion
hairyben said:
The thing is, he does polarise people, there are very few people who shrug and say their undecided/indifferent. He's probably the most loathed driver since schumacher, but he was pretty easy to dislike - he tried to be as ruthless on track as senna, as politically exploitative as prost, and as moral as an italian politician.
Yet what has Hamilton done? Few of his detractors can explain why beyond some cop-out and not really justifiable smug/arrogant allegations or something as idiotic and irrelevant as his fashion shoots. Probably the most single stand out thing was glock '08 and without blanket excusing it, that was much a mclaren team that were being so persecuted by the fia/ spanky max they were scared of their own shadow and you don't make the best decisions in those circumstance.
On the face of it he should be what most F1 fans want, the perfect pin-up - a phenomenally skilled driver who does his talking on-track, exciting, great ambassador for the sport. Why would you not at least respect what he brings to a race, or as F1 fans enjoy british sucess? Especially the British, the country that repeatedly suddenly all become tennis/football/curling/whatever fans/experts the second one of ours looks like they might have a shoe-in.
After a lot of thought a discussion the other day probably struck it- British class system. Snobbery. He's a council estate scrubber thats done good. Real f
king good. And people always wanna knock them back down; proles who feel betrayed/shown up/jealous, the profession/middle classes who feel "leapfrogged" by this pretentious boy who should know his place. I guess it comes down to whether you're a "good for you, well done lad" type of chap or a bit of an unsatisfied envious jerk. Am I right? Please tell me I'm wrong. Tell me why though, tell me something tangible as to why people actively take exception to him.
And for fanboys? Well i stopped frequenting forums/media that tended to be fanboy dominated (so thats most f1-orientated sites) in about 08-09, the fanboyism then was mostly schumacher then alonso and always ferrari... hamilton was still a bit "awkward", I daresay since he's found himself and became super successful that hes acquired legions of fanboy followers in such places now. Other successful sports stars get the same. The most successful always do, be it man U, Rossi, Tyson etc etc. you just have to see past it.
I'm quite indifferent to him, as it happens.Yet what has Hamilton done? Few of his detractors can explain why beyond some cop-out and not really justifiable smug/arrogant allegations or something as idiotic and irrelevant as his fashion shoots. Probably the most single stand out thing was glock '08 and without blanket excusing it, that was much a mclaren team that were being so persecuted by the fia/ spanky max they were scared of their own shadow and you don't make the best decisions in those circumstance.
On the face of it he should be what most F1 fans want, the perfect pin-up - a phenomenally skilled driver who does his talking on-track, exciting, great ambassador for the sport. Why would you not at least respect what he brings to a race, or as F1 fans enjoy british sucess? Especially the British, the country that repeatedly suddenly all become tennis/football/curling/whatever fans/experts the second one of ours looks like they might have a shoe-in.
After a lot of thought a discussion the other day probably struck it- British class system. Snobbery. He's a council estate scrubber thats done good. Real f
king good. And people always wanna knock them back down; proles who feel betrayed/shown up/jealous, the profession/middle classes who feel "leapfrogged" by this pretentious boy who should know his place. I guess it comes down to whether you're a "good for you, well done lad" type of chap or a bit of an unsatisfied envious jerk. Am I right? Please tell me I'm wrong. Tell me why though, tell me something tangible as to why people actively take exception to him.And for fanboys? Well i stopped frequenting forums/media that tended to be fanboy dominated (so thats most f1-orientated sites) in about 08-09, the fanboyism then was mostly schumacher then alonso and always ferrari... hamilton was still a bit "awkward", I daresay since he's found himself and became super successful that hes acquired legions of fanboy followers in such places now. Other successful sports stars get the same. The most successful always do, be it man U, Rossi, Tyson etc etc. you just have to see past it.
I think there are three facets to Hamilton that merit discussion:
1). Lewis as a British sportsman. I couldn't give a s
t about this. I not nationalistic in the slightest and find one of the things that I prefer about F1 to most sports is how refreshingly unpartisan the fans are, often supporting a team over a driver and very seldom supporting a driver simply because of his passport. See Nico's lack of love in Germany for more details.2). Lewis as a personality. I'll admit his public persona irritates me. But no more than any other celebrity really. If I'm honest, I think he looks like a bit of a clown in his uber-trendy kit. He's not model-handsome enough or 'street' looking enough to carry it off. He doesn't really look hard at all so dressing like his hip hop culture idols doesn't quite work IMO. But then I'm not really interested in him as a personality or a celebrity. I don't think he should particularly not do it. I just find it a bit cringey and it puts me off him as a person. I doubt I'll be going for a pint with him anytime soon so irrelevant.
3). Lewis as a driver. The only metric that I feel is relevant and I can't really fault it. He's excellent. Fast, racey and honestly, a lot more mature the last couple of years as he's got his head straight. It was easy to get annoyed by his stupid mistakes in the past but now he seems to just get the job done.
So I think he's a great driver (probably one of THE greats, in retropspect), a s
t personality and an irrelevant Brit. I don't warm to him as a person at all but don't wish him any ill will and respect what he's achieved/achieving. I can't actively 'support' him as he doesn't have the sort of charisma that Button (and weirdly Vettel, these days) seems to have, making it hard to get behind him but neither can I wish he loses. I like watching him race though.
I don't think it's class tbh.
Disastrous said:
I'm quite indifferent to him, as it happens.
I think there are three facets to Hamilton that merit discussion:
1). See Nico's lack of love in Germany for more details.
Not really a comparison as Rosberg was raised in Monaco and used to race under a Finnish license. He just changed his racing nationality to German to help his career. All my German F1 friends do not consider him German at all.I think there are three facets to Hamilton that merit discussion:
1). See Nico's lack of love in Germany for more details.
As far as I am aware Hamilton was most definitely born and raised in Stevenage
cgt2 said:
Disastrous said:
I'm quite indifferent to him, as it happens.
I think there are three facets to Hamilton that merit discussion:
1). See Nico's lack of love in Germany for more details.
Not really a comparison as Rosberg was raised in Monaco and used to race under a Finnish license. He just changed his racing nationality to German to help his career. All my German F1 friends do not consider him German at all.I think there are three facets to Hamilton that merit discussion:
1). See Nico's lack of love in Germany for more details.
As far as I am aware Hamilton was most definitely born and raised in Stevenage
But like I said, the nationalism side of it is the facet of him that interests me least. I couldn't care less where he is from.
Disastrous said:
cgt2 said:
Disastrous said:
I'm quite indifferent to him, as it happens.
I think there are three facets to Hamilton that merit discussion:
1). See Nico's lack of love in Germany for more details.
Not really a comparison as Rosberg was raised in Monaco and used to race under a Finnish license. He just changed his racing nationality to German to help his career. All my German F1 friends do not consider him German at all.I think there are three facets to Hamilton that merit discussion:
1). See Nico's lack of love in Germany for more details.
As far as I am aware Hamilton was most definitely born and raised in Stevenage
But like I said, the nationalism side of it is the facet of him that interests me least. I couldn't care less where he is from.
Personally, I don't get too caught up in the nationality of a driver either ... but many do and that's that. Aside from nationality; Hamilton is still the best racer to watch; just happens to be British.
Disastrous said:
But he's now racing as a German, and not popular. There are a few other German racing drivers available but Vettel is the popular one with the fans because he's charismatic. Lewis isn't IMO. I don't hate him for it at all though.
But like I said, the nationalism side of it is the facet of him that interests me least. I couldn't care less where he is from.
You may not be bothered, but many are. Schumacher was revered as an absolute hero in Germany and still is to this day. Witness the media scrum around Mick Schumacher yesterday, a commentator was saying that the last time he saw that kind of attention in the paddock was for MS. You still see a lot of his caps and t-shirts even though he hasn't been on a grid in four years.But like I said, the nationalism side of it is the facet of him that interests me least. I couldn't care less where he is from.
I have done business with a lot of Germans and we often talk F1. They are definitely very proud of their drivers. Vettel and Hulkenberg are popular (Rosberg is generally ignored as he's seen as a Monegasque) but my friend told me that even at the height of his success, Vettel was not even a fraction as popular as Schumacher. He told me MS was so revered as he was a working class hero from very humble beginnings. Actually not dissimilar to Hamilton..
LDN said:
Disastrous said:
cgt2 said:
Disastrous said:
I'm quite indifferent to him, as it happens.
I think there are three facets to Hamilton that merit discussion:
1). See Nico's lack of love in Germany for more details.
Not really a comparison as Rosberg was raised in Monaco and used to race under a Finnish license. He just changed his racing nationality to German to help his career. All my German F1 friends do not consider him German at all.I think there are three facets to Hamilton that merit discussion:
1). See Nico's lack of love in Germany for more details.
As far as I am aware Hamilton was most definitely born and raised in Stevenage
But like I said, the nationalism side of it is the facet of him that interests me least. I couldn't care less where he is from.
Personally, I don't get too caught up in the nationality of a driver either ... but many do and that's that. Aside from nationality; Hamilton is still the best racer to watch; just happens to be British.
Based on a small sample of you and I, we've already got a 100% agreement that nationality is irrelevant. Of course some people always support their countrymen, but for every example of that, I think you can find another where it isn't the case.
The Italians for example, support Ferrari, whether a Spaniard, a German or a Finn is in the hot seat.
It's perfectly acceptable to support a team over a driver and I know many posters on here have long held affection for Williams or McLaren, irrespective of the driver.
As for the podium, remind me what National Anthem they play first? Is it the winning constructor or the driver? (Genuine question as I can't remember. They do play both though, right?)
I'd maintain that F1 is relatively light on Nationalism. I think a combination of mostly British engineering, international drivers and a global audience that can't really tell or cares enough to learn the difference between European countries sees to that.
You may of course disagree, and that's fine. It's not stupid or naive so much as a different opinion.
LDN said:
You couldn't - but your suggestion F1, in general, has not really ever been nationalistic is the stupidest thing I've read on this thread! And rosberg being your only example would be a show of naivety. Rosberg is not even seen as German by most Germans... does Alonso not get support from the Spanish? Vettel, the Germans... and what are those odd colourful rectangles that rise above the drivers head on the podium.
I am British and am an Alonso fan and have been since 2007. I may well be the exception to the rule but I find it very strange that any driver (or sportsman for that matter) would garner any following due to their nationality. It's a bit like supporting a football team because your Dad did and his Dad before. People are very easily influenced by such trivialities.LDN said:
Personally, I don't get too caught up in the nationality of a driver either ... but many do and that's that. Aside from nationality; Hamilton is still the best racer to watch; just happens to be British.
He is an excellent racer no doubt but he isn't doing much racing at the front is he?If you put Vettel, Ricciardo or Verstappen (sadly for me I think Alonso peaked in 2012) in the same car I'm not sure he would be enjoying the same level of success against his teammate.
Disastrous said:
LDN said:
Disastrous said:
cgt2 said:
Disastrous said:
I'm quite indifferent to him, as it happens.
I think there are three facets to Hamilton that merit discussion:
1). See Nico's lack of love in Germany for more details.
Not really a comparison as Rosberg was raised in Monaco and used to race under a Finnish license. He just changed his racing nationality to German to help his career. All my German F1 friends do not consider him German at all.I think there are three facets to Hamilton that merit discussion:
1). See Nico's lack of love in Germany for more details.
As far as I am aware Hamilton was most definitely born and raised in Stevenage
But like I said, the nationalism side of it is the facet of him that interests me least. I couldn't care less where he is from.
Personally, I don't get too caught up in the nationality of a driver either ... but many do and that's that. Aside from nationality; Hamilton is still the best racer to watch; just happens to be British.
London424 said:
Disastrous said:
LDN said:
Disastrous said:
cgt2 said:
Disastrous said:
I'm quite indifferent to him, as it happens.
I think there are three facets to Hamilton that merit discussion:
1). See Nico's lack of love in Germany for more details.
Not really a comparison as Rosberg was raised in Monaco and used to race under a Finnish license. He just changed his racing nationality to German to help his career. All my German F1 friends do not consider him German at all.I think there are three facets to Hamilton that merit discussion:
1). See Nico's lack of love in Germany for more details.
As far as I am aware Hamilton was most definitely born and raised in Stevenage
But like I said, the nationalism side of it is the facet of him that interests me least. I couldn't care less where he is from.
Personally, I don't get too caught up in the nationality of a driver either ... but many do and that's that. Aside from nationality; Hamilton is still the best racer to watch; just happens to be British.
And your examples of teams being supported by their respect countries is just an example of nationalism... so I'm lost as to what you're saying. You've kind of stated that, actually F1 is very much nationalistic! Be it team or driver support.
Aside from all of that; have you been to Silverstone on race day? Every single lap; without fail; the crowd stand and cheer when Hamilton goes by. So you should at least admit that you may be in a minority; by quite a massive margin. For better or for worse.
InductionRoar said:
LDN said:
You couldn't - but your suggestion F1, in general, has not really ever been nationalistic is the stupidest thing I've read on this thread! And rosberg being your only example would be a show of naivety. Rosberg is not even seen as German by most Germans... does Alonso not get support from the Spanish? Vettel, the Germans... and what are those odd colourful rectangles that rise above the drivers head on the podium.
I am British and am an Alonso fan and have been since 2007. I may well be the exception to the rule but I find it very strange that any driver (or sportsman for that matter) would garner any following due to their nationality. It's a bit like supporting a football team because your Dad did and his Dad before. People are very easily influenced by such trivialities.LDN said:
Personally, I don't get too caught up in the nationality of a driver either ... but many do and that's that. Aside from nationality; Hamilton is still the best racer to watch; just happens to be British.
He is an excellent racer no doubt but he isn't doing much racing at the front is he?If you put Vettel, Ricciardo or Verstappen (sadly for me I think Alonso peaked in 2012) in the same car I'm not sure he would be enjoying the same level of success against his teammate.
LDN said:
London424 said:
Disastrous said:
LDN said:
Disastrous said:
cgt2 said:
Disastrous said:
I'm quite indifferent to him, as it happens.
I think there are three facets to Hamilton that merit discussion:
1). See Nico's lack of love in Germany for more details.
Not really a comparison as Rosberg was raised in Monaco and used to race under a Finnish license. He just changed his racing nationality to German to help his career. All my German F1 friends do not consider him German at all.I think there are three facets to Hamilton that merit discussion:
1). See Nico's lack of love in Germany for more details.
As far as I am aware Hamilton was most definitely born and raised in Stevenage
But like I said, the nationalism side of it is the facet of him that interests me least. I couldn't care less where he is from.
Personally, I don't get too caught up in the nationality of a driver either ... but many do and that's that. Aside from nationality; Hamilton is still the best racer to watch; just happens to be British.
And your examples of teams being supported by their respect countries is just an example of nationalism... so I'm lost as to what you're saying. You've kind of stated that, actually F1 is very much nationalistic! Be it team or driver support.
Aside from all of that; have you been to Silverstone on race day? Every single lap; without fail; the crowd stand and cheer when Hamilton goes by. So you should at least admit that you may be in a minority; by quite a massive margin. For better or for worse.
I acknowledged nationalism in F1 from my original post. All I've tried to suggest is that it's not as all-pervading as in a lot of other sports. There's room for people who just want to support a team or the sport as a whole. Of course you get shameful stuff like booing Hamilton's win on the podium but I would have thought most F1 fans find that rightfully appalling.
I suppose I see the support for Ferrari as being for the team, rather than the country. The Scuderia representing more than just a country flag and all that. I know lots of British F1 fans who are enormous Ferrari fans without being 'Italian fans'
And yes, I've been to Silverstone (2012 maybe?) and honestly, that didn't happen where we were, but I have seen it on tv since so yes, I'm sure it does. I remember Button getting the bigger cheer on the day actually, though he eventually retired.
Anyway, one more time, yes I agree there are nationalistic fans in F1, but I see the sport as a whole as being altogether less nationalistic and partisan than many others.
I don't really see what I can add to that really.
I feel sorry I bothered to post in the F1 forum now so will leave you experts to it - apologies!
swisstoni said:
InductionRoar said:
LDN said:
You couldn't - but your suggestion F1, in general, has not really ever been nationalistic is the stupidest thing I've read on this thread! And rosberg being your only example would be a show of naivety. Rosberg is not even seen as German by most Germans... does Alonso not get support from the Spanish? Vettel, the Germans... and what are those odd colourful rectangles that rise above the drivers head on the podium.
I am British and am an Alonso fan and have been since 2007. I may well be the exception to the rule but I find it very strange that any driver (or sportsman for that matter) would garner any following due to their nationality. It's a bit like supporting a football team because your Dad did and his Dad before. People are very easily influenced by such trivialities.LDN said:
Personally, I don't get too caught up in the nationality of a driver either ... but many do and that's that. Aside from nationality; Hamilton is still the best racer to watch; just happens to be British.
He is an excellent racer no doubt but he isn't doing much racing at the front is he?If you put Vettel, Ricciardo or Verstappen (sadly for me I think Alonso peaked in 2012) in the same car I'm not sure he would be enjoying the same level of success against his teammate.
Nobody can discount Hamilton's amazing ability but to elevate him as the best ever (as the "fanboys" do) is frankly ridiculous and pure speculation.
How would he compare with Fangio, Senna or Clark? A silly argument? Maybe, but it doesn't stop the fanboys does it? Hailing somebody as the greatest ever safe in the knowledge that the point can never be proved one way or the other is very silly - as is the whole armchair expert approach that most forums suffer from.
At the end of the day it is a spectacle for the fans and a sport for the drivers. Why do the fan(boy)s get more emotional than the drivers?
I for one would like to see Verstappen in a Mercedes as would a lot of fans.
InductionRoar said:
swisstoni said:
InductionRoar said:
LDN said:
You couldn't - but your suggestion F1, in general, has not really ever been nationalistic is the stupidest thing I've read on this thread! And rosberg being your only example would be a show of naivety. Rosberg is not even seen as German by most Germans... does Alonso not get support from the Spanish? Vettel, the Germans... and what are those odd colourful rectangles that rise above the drivers head on the podium.
I am British and am an Alonso fan and have been since 2007. I may well be the exception to the rule but I find it very strange that any driver (or sportsman for that matter) would garner any following due to their nationality. It's a bit like supporting a football team because your Dad did and his Dad before. People are very easily influenced by such trivialities.LDN said:
Personally, I don't get too caught up in the nationality of a driver either ... but many do and that's that. Aside from nationality; Hamilton is still the best racer to watch; just happens to be British.
He is an excellent racer no doubt but he isn't doing much racing at the front is he?If you put Vettel, Ricciardo or Verstappen (sadly for me I think Alonso peaked in 2012) in the same car I'm not sure he would be enjoying the same level of success against his teammate.
Nobody can discount Hamilton's amazing ability but to elevate him as the best ever (as the "fanboys" do) is frankly ridiculous and pure speculation.
How would he compare with Fangio, Senna or Clark? A silly argument? Maybe, but it doesn't stop the fanboys does it? Hailing somebody as the greatest ever safe in the knowledge that the point can never be proved one way or the other is very silly - as is the whole armchair expert approach that most forums suffer from.
At the end of the day it is a spectacle for the fans and a sport for the drivers. Why do the fan(boy)s get more emotional than the drivers?
I for one would like to see Verstappen in a Mercedes as would a lot of fans.
I counter that by not going near crappy social media dicussions. Seems to work well.
InductionRoar said:
How would he compare with Fangio, Senna or Clark? A silly argument? Maybe, but it doesn't stop the fanboys does it?
It's a discussion not an argument and one that most motor sport magazines and journalists have also had at some time. Although they are all of a different era it doesn't prevent the conversation. Personally I think Hamilton would stack up well against those other drivers as he is clearly one of the best of this generation. RichB said:
InductionRoar said:
How would he compare with Fangio, Senna or Clark? A silly argument? Maybe, but it doesn't stop the fanboys does it?
It's a discussion not an argument and one that most motor sport magazines and journalists have also had at some time. Although they are all of a different era it doesn't prevent the conversation. Personally I think Hamilton would stack up well against those other drivers as he is clearly one of the best of this generation. I'm not saying he would or wouldn't - I don't feel qualified enough to make such a statement.
What I am saying is that it is a pointless barometer of anything and the fact that motorsport magazines have discussed such a ridiculous topic doesn't surprise me at all.
InductionRoar said:
I'm not saying he would or wouldn't - I don't feel qualified enough to make such a statement.
Sorry I thought you did. You said (to elevate Hamilton to the ranks of the all-time greats) is "frankly ridiculous"... didn't you? Is this not you expressing an opinion just like anyone else? RichB said:
No I didn't say that anywhere.
So when you felt it necessary to correct my post (argument as opposed to discussion) you weren't actually being literal? The main distinction between a discussion and an argument is that in a discussion the protagonists are open minded and accepting of other's opinion.
I think the fanboys (whom this thread are about) are rather the opposite of that. Therefore, I feel argument is better suited to my post. It's all semantics at the end of the day as I'm sure you understood my post regardless.
swisstoni said:
InductionRoar said:
swisstoni said:
I counter that by not going near crappy social media dicussions. Seems to work well.
Me too. RichB said:
Sorry I thought you did. You said (to elevate Hamilton to the ranks of the all-time greats) is "frankly ridiculous"... didn't you? Is this not you expressing an opinion just like anyone else?
I think the difficulty you are having in understanding my post stems from the fact you have mis-quoted me. I said:
Nobody can discount Hamilton's amazing ability but to elevate him as the best ever (as the "fanboys" do) is frankly ridiculous and pure speculation.
Notice how you used the phrase "ranks of the all-time greats" and I said "the best ever"? I'm not sure LH is the best ever. He may be, he may not. He is certainly "one of the greats" by whatever metric you choose to measure greatness by and I never said he wasn't.
Disclaimer: Please note all of the above is my opinion.
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