When could my car have won an F1 race?
Discussion
CraigyMc said:
It really is a fantastic photo.
Gary C said:
Reminds me of an 80's tv advert that proposes the vary same thing.
As I remember it had a red Quattro with everything else in black and white with a bunch of vintage race cars.
Think it might have been a tyre advert (wasn't an Audi advert)
Has the vioice over along the lines of "if you entered your performance car in a 1950's GP, it would probably win"
Can't find it online though. Anyone else remember it ?
My memory recalls that as a print advert for a Rover 200.As I remember it had a red Quattro with everything else in black and white with a bunch of vintage race cars.
Think it might have been a tyre advert (wasn't an Audi advert)
Has the vioice over along the lines of "if you entered your performance car in a 1950's GP, it would probably win"
Can't find it online though. Anyone else remember it ?
Redlake27 said:
It's a really interesting question, so it made me look at the Historic racing lap times around Donington, a circuit I have driven in many road and race cars.
Impossible to compare - the circuit has seen many changes over the years. The 30s circuit differs significantly from today's circuit, even if they look very similar at first glance.Trabi601 said:
Redlake27 said:
It's a really interesting question, so it made me look at the Historic racing lap times around Donington, a circuit I have driven in many road and race cars.
Impossible to compare - the circuit has seen many changes over the years. The 30s circuit differs significantly from today's circuit, even if they look very similar at first glance.RoadRunner220 said:
Apologies for going way off topic, but, the garage I take my car to for servicing/upgrades, Phoenix Motorsport, has that very photo as an absolutely huge print on their wall, and each time I take my car there I stand and stare at it for a good few minutes wondering exactly how much of a time penalty the weight of the drivers massive testicles must have been.
It really is a fantastic photo.
That explains the ovoid profile to the front of the cockpit panelling. They must have had huge testes in those days!!It really is a fantastic photo.
Fantastic photo by the way. Saved to print.
Tghe only circuit layout that remains substantially in line with the way it always was is Goodwood. Even then the tarmac surface will be different.
However, I think comparing a car that set a time at Goodwood in 1948 with the exact same car's time in 2016 can be very informative.
Is there anywhere you could get such comparatives.
A good example of a car that ran at Goodwood in 1948 and runs there today would be the ERAs driven by the likes of Prince Bira and later Ludovic Lindsay.
However, I think comparing a car that set a time at Goodwood in 1948 with the exact same car's time in 2016 can be very informative.
Is there anywhere you could get such comparatives.
A good example of a car that ran at Goodwood in 1948 and runs there today would be the ERAs driven by the likes of Prince Bira and later Ludovic Lindsay.
The trouble is of course you are then into the murky world of driver ability - assuming B. Bira and Ludovik Lindsay are the same.
The principal definition of who drives an ERA these days is ~(mostly) wallet size - and whilst the likes of Mac Hulbert and James Baxter are doubtless rapid peddlers (much more so than I could ever be in those cars!) the fact remains that those are the guys who can afford to buy (and more importantly bend and repair the cars, not that they do so very often)
However, the vast majority of ERA drivers back then were the rich enthusiasts who could afford it as well, so maybe its not such a fanciful comparison.
Also - OP, as has been said before, what a nice thread. Informed discussion and educated guesswork/assessment. Much nicer than the usual bickering.
The principal definition of who drives an ERA these days is ~(mostly) wallet size - and whilst the likes of Mac Hulbert and James Baxter are doubtless rapid peddlers (much more so than I could ever be in those cars!) the fact remains that those are the guys who can afford to buy (and more importantly bend and repair the cars, not that they do so very often)
However, the vast majority of ERA drivers back then were the rich enthusiasts who could afford it as well, so maybe its not such a fanciful comparison.
Also - OP, as has been said before, what a nice thread. Informed discussion and educated guesswork/assessment. Much nicer than the usual bickering.
Edited by Vocal Minority on Tuesday 2nd August 09:41
A slight tangent on that subject of the relative abilities of ERA drivers is the story of the French GP at Rouen in 1964. The historic racers were there for a support race to the main GP and Patrick Lindsay, father of the above named Ludovic, offered his ERA 'Remus' to Jim Clark for a few laps. On his very first timed lap in the car, having never even sat in an ERA before, Clark was four seconds faster than the car's owner had been, and on his second lap beat the outright lap record for a vintage car.
RoadRunner220 said:
CraigyMc said:
It really is a fantastic photo.
Properly brave stuff in an age when it was considered better to be thrown clear in an accident than to remain in the car.
Great thread! Agree with a comment above; it's nice to see a change from the usual s
te-y Hamilton bashing here.
Some of the enthusiastic Nurburgring regulars are putting in seven minute laps in their track prepped road cars. Stefan Bellof's time was 6:26... Just consider that for a second... A pro racing driver, in an aero car, almost matched by every-day blokes in their converted family saloons.
Just for clarity... I'm not trying to take anything away from Bellof, or the guys flying around on the TF days today. Only to highlight how far road cars have come on. It's absolutely astonishing that a 3 series BMW can (almost) match a Porsche sports car.
te-y Hamilton bashing here.Some of the enthusiastic Nurburgring regulars are putting in seven minute laps in their track prepped road cars. Stefan Bellof's time was 6:26... Just consider that for a second... A pro racing driver, in an aero car, almost matched by every-day blokes in their converted family saloons.
Just for clarity... I'm not trying to take anything away from Bellof, or the guys flying around on the TF days today. Only to highlight how far road cars have come on. It's absolutely astonishing that a 3 series BMW can (almost) match a Porsche sports car.
Eric Mc said:
Tghe only circuit layout that remains substantially in line with the way it always was is Goodwood. Even then the tarmac surface will be different.
However, I think comparing a car that set a time at Goodwood in 1948 with the exact same car's time in 2016 can be very informative.
Is there anywhere you could get such comparatives.
A good example of a car that ran at Goodwood in 1948 and runs there today would be the ERAs driven by the likes of Prince Bira and later Ludovic Lindsay.
I remember reading after the first Goodwood revival a letter published in Motor Sport was asking why these amateurs racing today were quicker around Goodwood then the like of Moss, Hawthorn etc in exactlty the same cars in the 1950s... However, I think comparing a car that set a time at Goodwood in 1948 with the exact same car's time in 2016 can be very informative.
Is there anywhere you could get such comparatives.
A good example of a car that ran at Goodwood in 1948 and runs there today would be the ERAs driven by the likes of Prince Bira and later Ludovic Lindsay.
Track grip, tyres, engine and braking performance have all progresed immesurably since then. I bet just using modern brake linings would give you 1 second a lap. Even with the weight of a fire extinguigher these days
Boring_Chris said:
Some of the enthusiastic Nurburgring regulars are putting in seven minute laps in their track prepped road cars. Stefan Bellof's time was 6:26... Just consider that for a second... A pro racing driver, in an aero car, almost matched by every-day blokes in their converted family saloons.
Just for clarity... I'm not trying to take anything away from Bellof, or the guys flying around on the TF days today. Only to highlight how far road cars have come on. It's absolutely astonishing that a 3 series BMW can (almost) match a Porsche sports car.
The TF guys 'doing 7 minute laps' are doing BTG (Bridge to Gantry) laps, not full laps as Bellof did, and barely anyone is doing 7 mins flat. 7:30 is exceptional on a tourist lap. Then consider that even the very fastest cars take more than 20 seconds to cover the straight that isn't timed on a tourist lap, so even the fastest tourist drivers are barely going under 8 mins equivalent. Bellof's qualifying lap was 6:11. Even one of the fastest professional racing drivers in a factory prepared Porsche 918 was almost a minute slower than Bellof.Just for clarity... I'm not trying to take anything away from Bellof, or the guys flying around on the TF days today. Only to highlight how far road cars have come on. It's absolutely astonishing that a 3 series BMW can (almost) match a Porsche sports car.
So no, a 3 series BMW cannot (not even almost) match a Porsche sports car.
What is amazing is that a (professionally driven) VW Golf production car can now lap within a gnat's whisker of the pace of a Jaguar XJ220 supercar driven by John Nielsen on a like-for-like lap.
williamp said:
I remember reading after the first Goodwood revival a letter published in Motor Sport was asking why these amateurs racing today were quicker around Goodwood then the like of Moss, Hawthorn etc in exactlty the same cars in the 1950s...
Track grip, tyres, engine and braking performance have all progresed immesurably since then. I bet just using modern brake linings would give you 1 second a lap. Even with the weight of a fire extinguigher these days
That's what I've read too. It is very difficult to make direct comparisons over the decades - even with the same cars on pretty unchanged circuit layouts.Track grip, tyres, engine and braking performance have all progresed immesurably since then. I bet just using modern brake linings would give you 1 second a lap. Even with the weight of a fire extinguigher these days
What we would need to do is get a time machine - go back in time - kidnap a 26 year old Stirling Moss - take him to Goodwood and put him in a modern restored version of a car he was famously quick in (like a Maserati 250 or a Ferrari 250SWB) and let him set a few quick laps. It would be interesting how much better he would be compared to (say) 1958.
thegreenhell said:
Boring_Chris said:
Some of the enthusiastic Nurburgring regulars are putting in seven minute laps in their track prepped road cars. Stefan Bellof's time was 6:26... Just consider that for a second... A pro racing driver, in an aero car, almost matched by every-day blokes in their converted family saloons.
Just for clarity... I'm not trying to take anything away from Bellof, or the guys flying around on the TF days today. Only to highlight how far road cars have come on. It's absolutely astonishing that a 3 series BMW can (almost) match a Porsche sports car.
The TF guys 'doing 7 minute laps' are doing BTG (Bridge to Gantry) laps, not full laps as Bellof did, and barely anyone is doing 7 mins flat. 7:30 is exceptional on a tourist lap. Then consider that even the very fastest cars take more than 20 seconds to cover the straight that isn't timed on a tourist lap, so even the fastest tourist drivers are barely going under 8 mins equivalent. Bellof's qualifying lap was 6:11. Even one of the fastest professional racing drivers in a factory prepared Porsche 918 was almost a minute slower than Bellof.Just for clarity... I'm not trying to take anything away from Bellof, or the guys flying around on the TF days today. Only to highlight how far road cars have come on. It's absolutely astonishing that a 3 series BMW can (almost) match a Porsche sports car.
So no, a 3 series BMW cannot (not even almost) match a Porsche sports car.
What is amazing is that a (professionally driven) VW Golf production car can now lap within a gnat's whisker of the pace of a Jaguar XJ220 supercar driven by John Nielsen on a like-for-like lap.
tting on my well intentioned point here but, all accepted.I didn't know that Bellof's time included the GP circuit, too?
Edit, ah. the 20 second straight. Not the GP.
Boring_Chris said:
Kind of stting on my well intentioned point here but, all accepted.
I didn't know that Bellof's time included the GP circuit, too?
Edit, ah. the 20 second straight. Not the GP.
Sorry, I didn't mean to come across as an a-hole in any way. My point was just that the lap lengths are different between tourists and races. Even manufacturers claiming lap records for 'full' laps cut out a couple of hundred metres of track around the old old pits. You need to be very careful when comparing Ring lap times that you're comparing apples with apples.tting on my well intentioned point here but, all accepted.I didn't know that Bellof's time included the GP circuit, too?
Edit, ah. the 20 second straight. Not the GP.
And in the Nordschleife GP days (until 1976) the circuit had an extra loop (roughly the current GP start straight with a hairpin and straight back to the current Veedol chicane link to the Nordschleife.
This was 22.8km. In 1975, Niki Lauda did it in 6m 58s, or in other words, he went two kilometres further than a modern Porsche 918 can........41years ago.
This was 22.8km. In 1975, Niki Lauda did it in 6m 58s, or in other words, he went two kilometres further than a modern Porsche 918 can........41years ago.
Edited by Redlake27 on Tuesday 2nd August 14:44
StevieBee said:
Can we have a few more threads like this please...you know; interesting topic, informed replies, something learned.. If only to balance out the Rosberg/Hamilton handbags.
It's an oldie, but I asked a very similar question a while back (what would beat a zero downforce era F1 car) and the answer was, again, pretty much nothing. But not before much headscratching and interesting ideas were put forth.http://www.pistonheads.com/gassing/topic.asp?t=140...
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