The Official 2016 Belgian Grand Prix Thread **Spoilers**
Discussion
Blayney said:
Regarding the oft toted statement "Rosberg can only win from the front". It's true.
20 wins, 13 from pole, 18 from the front row, 2 from 3rd (both in 2014).
His biggest swing from quali to race is 19th to 9th but he was technically last in that race. (2006 USA) Next is 18th to 9th in 2008 British GP. According to the race report he had suspension issues in quali and actually started from the pitlane after making changes. During the race he crashed into Timo Glock trying to overtake him but was able to continue.
Make what you will from all of that...
Here are his race win stats, posted previously in an old thread discussing rosbergs racecraft...(or lack of it)20 wins, 13 from pole, 18 from the front row, 2 from 3rd (both in 2014).
His biggest swing from quali to race is 19th to 9th but he was technically last in that race. (2006 USA) Next is 18th to 9th in 2008 British GP. According to the race report he had suspension issues in quali and actually started from the pitlane after making changes. During the race he crashed into Timo Glock trying to overtake him but was able to continue.
Make what you will from all of that...
20 wins, 13 have been from Pole position.
Of the 7 other wins:
2013 British GP - Won after Hamilton (pole) had a tyre failure while leading.
2014 Australian GP - Won after Hamilton (pole) has a engine failure on lap 2.
2014 Austrian GP - Rosberg (3rd on grid) Hamilton (9th on grid) finished 1 - 2. Rosberg passed both Williams during pitstops, not on the track.
2015 Austrian GP - Hamilton (pole) had a bad start, Rosberg led, Hamilton got a 5s penalty for going over a white line on the pit exit.
2015 Monaco GP - Hamilton leading all the way until a pointless badly called safety car pitstop lost him the lead
2016 Australian GP - Rosberg took the lead after Vettel pitted.
2016 Bahrain GP - Hamilton turn 1 incident dropped him back, Rosberg led all the way to the end.
cgt2 said:
Quite amusing warching Rosbergs body language as the quesrions from the floor initially danced around him.Sylvaforever said:
cgt2 said:
Quite amusing warching Rosbergs body language as the quesrions from the floor initially danced around him.GCH said:
Here are his race win stats, posted previously in an old thread discussing rosbergs racecraft...(or lack of it)
20 wins, 13 have been from Pole position.
Of the 7 other wins:
2013 British GP - Won after Hamilton (pole) had a tyre failure while leading.
2014 Australian GP - Won after Hamilton (pole) has a engine failure on lap 2.
2014 Austrian GP - Rosberg (3rd on grid) Hamilton (9th on grid) finished 1 - 2. Rosberg passed both Williams during pitstops, not on the track.
2015 Austrian GP - Hamilton (pole) had a bad start, Rosberg led, Hamilton got a 5s penalty for going over a white line on the pit exit.
2015 Monaco GP - Hamilton leading all the way until a pointless badly called safety car pitstop lost him the lead
2016 Australian GP - Rosberg took the lead after Vettel pitted.
2016 Bahrain GP - Hamilton turn 1 incident dropped him back, Rosberg led all the way to the end.
I'm glad you've saved me as I was going to look at that today! Very interesting really. 20 wins, 13 have been from Pole position.
Of the 7 other wins:
2013 British GP - Won after Hamilton (pole) had a tyre failure while leading.
2014 Australian GP - Won after Hamilton (pole) has a engine failure on lap 2.
2014 Austrian GP - Rosberg (3rd on grid) Hamilton (9th on grid) finished 1 - 2. Rosberg passed both Williams during pitstops, not on the track.
2015 Austrian GP - Hamilton (pole) had a bad start, Rosberg led, Hamilton got a 5s penalty for going over a white line on the pit exit.
2015 Monaco GP - Hamilton leading all the way until a pointless badly called safety car pitstop lost him the lead
2016 Australian GP - Rosberg took the lead after Vettel pitted.
2016 Bahrain GP - Hamilton turn 1 incident dropped him back, Rosberg led all the way to the end.
amare32 said:
Verstappen is a ticking time bomb. Only a matter of time he does something catastrophic either to himself of harm another driver. Shades of Montoya with a (large) dash of Crashtor Maldonado thrown in.
I couldn't agree more. What genuinely frightens me, is that the path he's on is mirroring that of Marco Simoncelli and any voices of caution are dismissed as "haters" or of jealousy. We've already been robbed of one unique talent due to "yes men" and toadies, and I'd hate to see Max go the same way.Horner has a pivotal role to play here, and in public at least, he is yet to step up. Hopefully behind closed doors, they are having some serious talks.
Raikkonen (IMO) is the very model of "hard but fair", much like Alonso, the drivers all know they can go wheel to wheel with him, and come out the other end OK. I strongly suspect however that all future encounters with Max, he will handle differently, as he now believes (with just reason), that Max is more likely to put him off.
This can't end well.
FeelingLucky said:
amare32 said:
Verstappen is a ticking time bomb. Only a matter of time he does something catastrophic either to himself of harm another driver. Shades of Montoya with a (large) dash of Crashtor Maldonado thrown in.
I couldn't agree more. What genuinely frightens me, is that the path he's on is mirroring that of Marco Simoncelli and any voices of caution are dismissed as "haters" or of jealousy. We've already been robbed of one unique talent due to "yes men" and toadies, and I'd hate to see Max go the same way.Horner has a pivotal role to play here, and in public at least, he is yet to step up. Hopefully behind closed doors, they are having some serious talks.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2kNZzqqdhM0
GCH said:
Here are his race win stats, posted previously in an old thread discussing rosbergs racecraft...(or lack of it)
20 wins, 13 have been from Pole position.
Of the 7 other wins:
2013 British GP - Won after Hamilton (pole) had a tyre failure while leading.
2014 Australian GP - Won after Hamilton (pole) has a engine failure on lap 2.
2014 Austrian GP - Rosberg (3rd on grid) Hamilton (9th on grid) finished 1 - 2. Rosberg passed both Williams during pitstops, not on the track.
2015 Austrian GP - Hamilton (pole) had a bad start, Rosberg led, Hamilton got a 5s penalty for going over a white line on the pit exit.
2015 Monaco GP - Hamilton leading all the way until a pointless badly called safety car pitstop lost him the lead
2016 Australian GP - Rosberg took the lead after Vettel pitted.
2016 Bahrain GP - Hamilton turn 1 incident dropped him back, Rosberg led all the way to the end.
Really does show that everything is not what it appears. It really is mystifying why they have renewed him. If it were me I'd have paid off Red Bull and gone for Sainz who unfortunately stuck in Toro Rosso purgatory for at least 2 years. Probably still a much cheaper option.20 wins, 13 have been from Pole position.
Of the 7 other wins:
2013 British GP - Won after Hamilton (pole) had a tyre failure while leading.
2014 Australian GP - Won after Hamilton (pole) has a engine failure on lap 2.
2014 Austrian GP - Rosberg (3rd on grid) Hamilton (9th on grid) finished 1 - 2. Rosberg passed both Williams during pitstops, not on the track.
2015 Austrian GP - Hamilton (pole) had a bad start, Rosberg led, Hamilton got a 5s penalty for going over a white line on the pit exit.
2015 Monaco GP - Hamilton leading all the way until a pointless badly called safety car pitstop lost him the lead
2016 Australian GP - Rosberg took the lead after Vettel pitted.
2016 Bahrain GP - Hamilton turn 1 incident dropped him back, Rosberg led all the way to the end.
I think before condemming Max to be hung, drawn and quartered we should look at it a different way.
Yes some of his driving was out of order and I think the stewards should have given him a drive thru or at least an official warning for driving standards and then waited to see if he improved.
But why was he so hot headed ? Because he screwed up. His start was slow, he then has contact which has to be fixed, meanwhile he's lost a ton of places, he's in front of what is basically his home crowd and he's screwed up. He got desperate, he lost his cool.
The aggressiveness got him nowhere. This morning he should be reflecting on that and realising that even if things start going badly you need to retain composure and drive as you normally would. Every driver at some point or other has had to learn this (usually in juniour series) and they've become better drivers when they can apply that.
Despite his bravado in front of cameras I think he'll come to realise that all the effort put in to shutting people down and making risky moves doesn't pay off, it doesn't help lap time for one thing, he also won't want to lose the trust of his peers. He needs to learn from this and I reckon those around him will be prompting that.
Its not a disaster, but he must learn from it - it will be a disaster if he doesn't and continues to drive like that every time he gets rattled.
I honestly think he's a smart, mature person even if he doesn't like it I reckon he'll understand he needs to accept he did wrong in order to succeed and be a better driver.
Yes some of his driving was out of order and I think the stewards should have given him a drive thru or at least an official warning for driving standards and then waited to see if he improved.
But why was he so hot headed ? Because he screwed up. His start was slow, he then has contact which has to be fixed, meanwhile he's lost a ton of places, he's in front of what is basically his home crowd and he's screwed up. He got desperate, he lost his cool.
The aggressiveness got him nowhere. This morning he should be reflecting on that and realising that even if things start going badly you need to retain composure and drive as you normally would. Every driver at some point or other has had to learn this (usually in juniour series) and they've become better drivers when they can apply that.
Despite his bravado in front of cameras I think he'll come to realise that all the effort put in to shutting people down and making risky moves doesn't pay off, it doesn't help lap time for one thing, he also won't want to lose the trust of his peers. He needs to learn from this and I reckon those around him will be prompting that.
Its not a disaster, but he must learn from it - it will be a disaster if he doesn't and continues to drive like that every time he gets rattled.
I honestly think he's a smart, mature person even if he doesn't like it I reckon he'll understand he needs to accept he did wrong in order to succeed and be a better driver.
If one read this forum before watching the TV coverage you would think the pundits would be all over Max. Webber and Coulthard (who to me are the only credible TV pundits) said very much the same as you have just done above.
Don't forget he has two racing parents and Jos has done a great job bringing him to this point. I'm sure he will be having strong words with his son this week. As will Marko. I know he gets no love, but Marko is very experienced with racing drivers and Max has several people around him who will no doubt analyse what he did yesterday with him.
His career trajectory has been so fast up to this point it is inevitable that mistakes will be made in public and in the full glare of the spotlight. Don't forget Kimi has had similar moments with other drivers, I even remember Jean Alesi and Brundle went through a similar period of crashing into each other repeatedly. Very similar language was used at the time. Alesi accused Brundle of trying to kill him and they were much older than Max.
Max has a great opportunity in a top line car and until the last race had outpointed Ricciardo so he needs to get his head together and focus.
I do think the huge pressure of expectation yesterday was too much for a person who is after all just a young kid. Every broadcast made reference to there being three times the usual number of fans there due to Max.
Don't forget he has two racing parents and Jos has done a great job bringing him to this point. I'm sure he will be having strong words with his son this week. As will Marko. I know he gets no love, but Marko is very experienced with racing drivers and Max has several people around him who will no doubt analyse what he did yesterday with him.
His career trajectory has been so fast up to this point it is inevitable that mistakes will be made in public and in the full glare of the spotlight. Don't forget Kimi has had similar moments with other drivers, I even remember Jean Alesi and Brundle went through a similar period of crashing into each other repeatedly. Very similar language was used at the time. Alesi accused Brundle of trying to kill him and they were much older than Max.
Max has a great opportunity in a top line car and until the last race had outpointed Ricciardo so he needs to get his head together and focus.
I do think the huge pressure of expectation yesterday was too much for a person who is after all just a young kid. Every broadcast made reference to there being three times the usual number of fans there due to Max.
cgt2 said:
I do think the huge pressure of expectation yesterday was too much for a person who is after all just a young kid. Every broadcast made reference to there being three times the usual number of fans there due to Max.
It's interesting that point. Maybe there isn't anything wrong with F1, it's the same as it ever was. But local fan bases need/want a driver they can be bothered to turn out to see?
HustleRussell said:
La Source is funny, it isn't much slower to miss the apex- in fact Vettel was probably tighter to the apex in turn 1, lap 1, than Rosberg was on his pole lap.
I thought that Vettel was trying to compromise Kimi's line out of the corner to get to Eau Rouge first. That's perfectly legitimate.I've had a look at the incident again, and it is clear that Max was fully alongside Kimi well before the corner. He braked fractionally before Kimi, leaving his front wing slightly behind Kimi's offisde front wheel, but one would expect that as he was taking a tighter line. The line was valid. From the overhead shot it can be seen that two other drivers took the same line without problem, one being a Force India right behind Max.
There would have been no problems without the intervention of Vettel. He turned in sharply, as can be seen from the overhead shot.
He overtook a slower, but accelerating Max off the line so knew he was there and interested.
That doesn't absolve Max of his later indiscretions of course.
The Hulk reckons the red flag cost him a podium yesterday. http://www.motorsport.com/f1/news/hulkenberg-says-...
I suspect that the main beneficiary had the race not been stopped would have been Lewis. The fastest tyre strategy was probably Med, Med, Soft. Having followed Fernando through the field, but able to easy pass, when needed, Lewis almost certainly would have held track position and conserved enough tyre on the first stint to pull a decent gap on the others as they inevitably pitted away from their Softs.
I suspect that the main beneficiary had the race not been stopped would have been Lewis. The fastest tyre strategy was probably Med, Med, Soft. Having followed Fernando through the field, but able to easy pass, when needed, Lewis almost certainly would have held track position and conserved enough tyre on the first stint to pull a decent gap on the others as they inevitably pitted away from their Softs.
rdjohn said:
I suspect that the main beneficiary had the race not been stopped would have been Lewis. The fastest tyre strategy was probably Med, Med, Soft. Having followed Fernando through the field, but able to easy pass, when needed, Lewis almost certainly would have held track position and conserved enough tyre on the first stint to pull a decent gap on the others as they inevitably pitted away from their Softs.
Couldn't have made it any easier for him than it was.
GCH said:
Here are his race win stats, posted previously in an old thread discussing rosbergs racecraft...(or lack of it)
20 wins, 13 have been from Pole position.
I think this is probably comparable to most F1 drivers. In fact, let's look at Lewis Hamiltons wins. 20 wins, 13 have been from Pole position.
He has 49 wins.
28 of those wins were from pole position
Wins 49
From pole:
2007 - Canada
2007 - USA
2007 - Hungary
2007 - Japan
2008 - Australia
2008 - Germany
2008 - China
2009 - Singapore
2010 - Canada
2012 - Hungary
2012 - Italy
2013 - HUngary
2014 - Malaysia
2014 - China
2014 - Spain
2014 - Italy
2014 - Singapore
2014 - Russia
2015 - Australia
2015 - China
2015 - Bahrain
2015 - Canada
2015 - British
2015 - Belgium
2015 - Italy
2016 - Canada
2016 - Austria
2016 - British
15 of the wins were from the front row:
2010 - Turkey
2010 - Belgium
2011 - Germany
2011 - Abu Dhabi
2012 - Canda
2012 - USA
2014 - Bahrain
2014 - Japan
2014 - USA
2014 - Abu Dhabi
2015 - Japan
2015 - Russia
2015 - USA
2016 - HUngary
2016 - Germany
That means out of 49 wins, 6 wins were from races where he didn't start on the front row. I bet if you went through most F1 drivers wins, you would find the same sort of numbers.
It's rare to win from back in the pack for anyone.
LandR said:
GCH said:
Here are his race win stats, posted previously in an old thread discussing rosbergs racecraft...(or lack of it)
20 wins, 13 have been from Pole position.
I think this is probably comparable to most F1 drivers. In fact, let's look at Lewis Hamiltons wins. 20 wins, 13 have been from Pole position.
He has 49 wins.
28 of those wins were from pole position
Wins 49
From pole:
2007 - Canada
2007 - USA
2007 - Hungary
2007 - Japan
2008 - Australia
2008 - Germany
2008 - China
2009 - Singapore
2010 - Canada
2012 - Hungary
2012 - Italy
2013 - HUngary
2014 - Malaysia
2014 - China
2014 - Spain
2014 - Italy
2014 - Singapore
2014 - Russia
2015 - Australia
2015 - China
2015 - Bahrain
2015 - Canada
2015 - British
2015 - Belgium
2015 - Italy
2016 - Canada
2016 - Austria
2016 - British
15 of the wins were from the front row:
2010 - Turkey
2010 - Belgium
2011 - Germany
2011 - Abu Dhabi
2012 - Canda
2012 - USA
2014 - Bahrain
2014 - Japan
2014 - USA
2014 - Abu Dhabi
2015 - Japan
2015 - Russia
2015 - USA
2016 - HUngary
2016 - Germany
That means out of 49 wins, 6 wins were from races where he didn't start on the front row. I bet if you went through most F1 drivers wins, you would find the same sort of numbers.
It's rare to win from back in the pack for anyone.
That list means nothing because there is no context, how many did Hamilton lead every lap from pole or the front row, how many races did he have to chase and overtake the leaders?
Just from recent memory, Austria 2016 Hamilton was on pole but he didn't stay in front all the way, in fact he dropped back and had to overtake Verstappen and Rosberg (who made a dogs dinner of defending it) to take the win. This is what Rosberg has never done, he has never overtaken another driver on track for a race win if he hasn't led it all the way from pole. They have all been achieved through pit stops or retirements.
Just from recent memory, Austria 2016 Hamilton was on pole but he didn't stay in front all the way, in fact he dropped back and had to overtake Verstappen and Rosberg (who made a dogs dinner of defending it) to take the win. This is what Rosberg has never done, he has never overtaken another driver on track for a race win if he hasn't led it all the way from pole. They have all been achieved through pit stops or retirements.
LandR said:
I think this is probably comparable to most F1 drivers. In fact, let's look at Lewis Hamiltons wins.
He has 49 wins.
28 of those wins were from pole position
Wins 49
From pole:
2007 - Canada
2007 - USA
2007 - Hungary
2007 - Japan
2008 - Australia
2008 - Germany
2008 - China
2009 - Singapore
2010 - Canada
2012 - Hungary
2012 - Italy
2013 - HUngary
2014 - Malaysia
2014 - China
2014 - Spain
2014 - Italy
2014 - Singapore
2014 - Russia
2015 - Australia
2015 - China
2015 - Bahrain
2015 - Canada
2015 - British
2015 - Belgium
2015 - Italy
2016 - Canada
2016 - Austria
2016 - British
15 of the wins were from the front row:
2010 - Turkey
2010 - Belgium
2011 - Germany
2011 - Abu Dhabi
2012 - Canda
2012 - USA
2014 - Bahrain
2014 - Japan
2014 - USA
2014 - Abu Dhabi
2015 - Japan
2015 - Russia
2015 - USA
2016 - HUngary
2016 - Germany
That means out of 49 wins, 6 wins were from races where he didn't start on the front row. I bet if you went through most F1 drivers wins, you would find the same sort of numbers.
It's rare to win from back in the pack for anyone.
Well said. I'm tired of all the constant and moronic Rosberg bashing that goes on in these threads.He has 49 wins.
28 of those wins were from pole position
Wins 49
From pole:
2007 - Canada
2007 - USA
2007 - Hungary
2007 - Japan
2008 - Australia
2008 - Germany
2008 - China
2009 - Singapore
2010 - Canada
2012 - Hungary
2012 - Italy
2013 - HUngary
2014 - Malaysia
2014 - China
2014 - Spain
2014 - Italy
2014 - Singapore
2014 - Russia
2015 - Australia
2015 - China
2015 - Bahrain
2015 - Canada
2015 - British
2015 - Belgium
2015 - Italy
2016 - Canada
2016 - Austria
2016 - British
15 of the wins were from the front row:
2010 - Turkey
2010 - Belgium
2011 - Germany
2011 - Abu Dhabi
2012 - Canda
2012 - USA
2014 - Bahrain
2014 - Japan
2014 - USA
2014 - Abu Dhabi
2015 - Japan
2015 - Russia
2015 - USA
2016 - HUngary
2016 - Germany
That means out of 49 wins, 6 wins were from races where he didn't start on the front row. I bet if you went through most F1 drivers wins, you would find the same sort of numbers.
It's rare to win from back in the pack for anyone.
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