The Official 2016 Belgian Grand Prix Thread **Spoilers**
Discussion
HustleRussell said:
I don't disagree overall but for memorable Rosberg drives- was it 4th in a Williams in Interlagos in the rain? We're talking years ago- 2006?
ETA: 2007
I dont remember that memorable moment ETA: 2007
Anyway if he's due a great move every 10 years then 2017 will be riveting for Rosberg fans..
Edited by cgt2 on Monday 29th August 15:56
Overview of the Belgian GP:
Promised much by having five cars, maybe even seven, at the front with a chance of a podium. Should it rain, then even the top step. There was the promise of a thrilling drive from Hamilton from the back row.
The first corner incident put paid to that, with just Ricciardo left of the hard chargers.
Then the quite horrific incident with the Renault which again restricted the excitement to an extent. Without it Hamilton might have had an epic battle with DR.
Mind you, the way he allowed Alonso through at La Source suggested his drive might have been calculated rather than all out.
So lots of might have beens. Was the race ruined?
I enjoyed it. Lots of things happening. I watched the edited highlights on Ch4 and there was something going on all the time. Not what we hoped for perhaps, but still fun.
We learned that the Merc is not without its weak points, that the regulation with regards penalties are pointless, that and 18-year-old can drive like an 18-year-old regardless of ability, Hamilton can drive steadily and that Horner doesn't like Pirelli.
Spa delivered again, maybe not what we expected, but we never expected that in any case.
Good race.
Promised much by having five cars, maybe even seven, at the front with a chance of a podium. Should it rain, then even the top step. There was the promise of a thrilling drive from Hamilton from the back row.
The first corner incident put paid to that, with just Ricciardo left of the hard chargers.
Then the quite horrific incident with the Renault which again restricted the excitement to an extent. Without it Hamilton might have had an epic battle with DR.
Mind you, the way he allowed Alonso through at La Source suggested his drive might have been calculated rather than all out.
So lots of might have beens. Was the race ruined?
I enjoyed it. Lots of things happening. I watched the edited highlights on Ch4 and there was something going on all the time. Not what we hoped for perhaps, but still fun.
We learned that the Merc is not without its weak points, that the regulation with regards penalties are pointless, that and 18-year-old can drive like an 18-year-old regardless of ability, Hamilton can drive steadily and that Horner doesn't like Pirelli.
Spa delivered again, maybe not what we expected, but we never expected that in any case.
Good race.
Crafty_ said:
Here we go again, get your handbags ready: http://www.f1today.net/en/news/f1/216286/red-bull-... original article http://www.autobild.de/artikel/formel-1-technik-in...
Unnamed "rivals" suggesting that RBR are running a diffuser that flexes illegally, Marko says its slander...
Ferrari are reaching for anything to deflect on the fact they're just completely lacking this year. Even a driver like Vettel can't get results for them, when he's having a brilliant drive they stitch him up with dodgy strategy. They might be in 3rd place, but they're as far from a WDC or WCC as any of them.Unnamed "rivals" suggesting that RBR are running a diffuser that flexes illegally, Marko says its slander...
Just caught up with the race, bit of a let down after the 1st corner incident I thought...I would put a large proportion of the blame on Vettel although he could claim to be a bit surprised that Verstappen put his car at the apex along with Raikkonen. Some of Verstappen's later indiscretions were a bit cringeworthy...the Stewards seem to think it's fine, so a bit confused.
After all the hype of Hamilton coming from the back passing people, that one didn't yield much excitement either...I saw one quick car he passed under DRS...did anybody else see a great pass? For a guy who pounded round every practice session working on race performance, he hardly set the track alight when it comes to race pace I thought. At the end trying really hard he put in a lap 2 tenths faster than what Rosberg had set 30-odd laps earlier. He seemed to struggle on the Soft tyre as well (hence the final stint on the Mediums?). Ain't a vintage Hamilton race, that's for sure. Strange, if lucky race for him. I guess it evens out the earlier bad luck he suffered due to Merc unreliability.
Good result for McLaren I guess, keeping some fast cars behind on pace...Massa was clearly struggling but I wonder if Bottas would have found a way past Alonso if he'd have been released a few laps earlier...it looked like Alonso was controlling the pack behind well. It would have been interesting to see what Button could have done too.
You've got to feel for Hulk, he was in a great position before the red flag. He would have led the race as Rosberg and Ricciardo pitted. It would have been a more interesting race if the red flag didn't neutralise the race...the rule change regarding this next year is very welcome.
I have obviously excluded races where Rosberg retired from the race, retired but was still classified, set no qualifying time.
Overall for his entire career he has finished 0.23 positions higher than he started. Doesn't mean much does it? I suppose it means statistically over such a big number of results he has finished or qualified more or less where the car should be.
It perhaps is worth considering that often there will be retirements ahead of a driver too that bump up their finishing position and on the other hand car failures that lower a result through no fault of the driver.
So what was interesting that I found? Well that Rosberg benefited from Piquet Jnrs Singapore crash and got 2nd place, his highest at that point.
Here's the results for each season
2006 3 positions higher than quali
2007 0.71 positions higher than quali
2008 1.75 positions higher than quali
2009 0.25 positions higher than quali
2010 1.44 positions higher than quali
2011 1 position lower than quali
2012 0.41 positions higher than quali
2013 0.81 positions lower than quali
2014 0.82 positions lower than quali
2015 0.24 positions lower than quali
2016* 1.08 positions lower than quali
Regarding the oft toted statement "Rosberg can only win from the front". It's true.
20 wins, 13 from pole, 18 from the front row, 2 from 3rd (both in 2014).
His biggest swing from quali to race is 19th to 9th but he was technically last in that race. (2006 USA) Next is 18th to 9th in 2008 British GP. According to the race report he had suspension issues in quali and actually started from the pitlane after making changes. During the race he crashed into Timo Glock trying to overtake him but was able to continue.
Make what you will from all of that...
A man after my own heart I see! I think you covered most points in the above, however, I think it would be better to list the qualifying positions and race finishing positions rather than as a relative change in positions. As you have pointed out, if you qualify on the front row you are either going backwards or winning so an average qualifying position over a season of <2 means a top car and I don't believe it is right to use stats from that particular season to support the claim that 'Rosberg can only win from the front'.
IMO, the only way to determine if a certain driver is a good racer is measure their average finishing position when they don't have a top qualifying car (i.e. average qualifying position>2), and it's a bit unfair (and possibly biased) to then attribute the entire season's worth of data to other competitors retiring. This may hold water if we're talking about the 50s or 60s, however, in the modern era with so many races in a year, the number of outliers affecting the average position will be very small and so won't skew the overall picture you're seeing.
I really ought to get that stats/f1 history thread started soon...
After all the hype of Hamilton coming from the back passing people, that one didn't yield much excitement either...I saw one quick car he passed under DRS...did anybody else see a great pass? For a guy who pounded round every practice session working on race performance, he hardly set the track alight when it comes to race pace I thought. At the end trying really hard he put in a lap 2 tenths faster than what Rosberg had set 30-odd laps earlier. He seemed to struggle on the Soft tyre as well (hence the final stint on the Mediums?). Ain't a vintage Hamilton race, that's for sure. Strange, if lucky race for him. I guess it evens out the earlier bad luck he suffered due to Merc unreliability.
Good result for McLaren I guess, keeping some fast cars behind on pace...Massa was clearly struggling but I wonder if Bottas would have found a way past Alonso if he'd have been released a few laps earlier...it looked like Alonso was controlling the pack behind well. It would have been interesting to see what Button could have done too.
You've got to feel for Hulk, he was in a great position before the red flag. He would have led the race as Rosberg and Ricciardo pitted. It would have been a more interesting race if the red flag didn't neutralise the race...the rule change regarding this next year is very welcome.
Blayney said:
suffolk009 said:
Rosberg had a great day testing. I can hardly wait for three years hence, when he is in an average car, finds himself racing midfield and going backwards in the race.
This interested me as it's an opinion that I've held for the last few years (that Rosberg qualifies well and then goes backwards). So I've collected the data and worked it out...I have obviously excluded races where Rosberg retired from the race, retired but was still classified, set no qualifying time.
Overall for his entire career he has finished 0.23 positions higher than he started. Doesn't mean much does it? I suppose it means statistically over such a big number of results he has finished or qualified more or less where the car should be.
It perhaps is worth considering that often there will be retirements ahead of a driver too that bump up their finishing position and on the other hand car failures that lower a result through no fault of the driver.
So what was interesting that I found? Well that Rosberg benefited from Piquet Jnrs Singapore crash and got 2nd place, his highest at that point.
Here's the results for each season
2006 3 positions higher than quali
2007 0.71 positions higher than quali
2008 1.75 positions higher than quali
2009 0.25 positions higher than quali
2010 1.44 positions higher than quali
2011 1 position lower than quali
2012 0.41 positions higher than quali
2013 0.81 positions lower than quali
2014 0.82 positions lower than quali
2015 0.24 positions lower than quali
2016* 1.08 positions lower than quali
- season obviously ongoing
Regarding the oft toted statement "Rosberg can only win from the front". It's true.
20 wins, 13 from pole, 18 from the front row, 2 from 3rd (both in 2014).
His biggest swing from quali to race is 19th to 9th but he was technically last in that race. (2006 USA) Next is 18th to 9th in 2008 British GP. According to the race report he had suspension issues in quali and actually started from the pitlane after making changes. During the race he crashed into Timo Glock trying to overtake him but was able to continue.
Make what you will from all of that...
A man after my own heart I see! I think you covered most points in the above, however, I think it would be better to list the qualifying positions and race finishing positions rather than as a relative change in positions. As you have pointed out, if you qualify on the front row you are either going backwards or winning so an average qualifying position over a season of <2 means a top car and I don't believe it is right to use stats from that particular season to support the claim that 'Rosberg can only win from the front'.IMO, the only way to determine if a certain driver is a good racer is measure their average finishing position when they don't have a top qualifying car (i.e. average qualifying position>2), and it's a bit unfair (and possibly biased) to then attribute the entire season's worth of data to other competitors retiring. This may hold water if we're talking about the 50s or 60s, however, in the modern era with so many races in a year, the number of outliers affecting the average position will be very small and so won't skew the overall picture you're seeing.
I really ought to get that stats/f1 history thread started soon...
Dr Z said:
After all the hype of Hamilton coming from the back passing people, that one didn't yield much excitement either...I saw one quick car he passed under DRS...did anybody else see a great pass? For a guy who pounded round every practice session working on race performance, he hardly set the track alight when it comes to race pace I thought. At the end trying really hard he put in a lap 2 tenths faster than what Rosberg had set 30-odd laps earlier. He seemed to struggle on the Soft tyre as well (hence the final stint on the Mediums?). Ain't a vintage Hamilton race, that's for sure. Strange, if lucky race for him. I guess it evens out the earlier bad luck he suffered due to Merc unreliability.
As you say the red flag interrupted and then going for a second set of softs ruined his race really because he ended up displaced, I think he should have gone to mediums at that point and would either not need to stop again or have a short run at the end on super soft.Brundle did make the point during converage that all his setup work over the weekend was wasted. I think the setup also wasn't ideal because he was so slow in S2, if he had more downforce he could have been affected here and still quicker in S1 and 3 as he was quite comfortable in those.
Nevertheless with a bit of luck he got the job done and the monkey is off his back for the moment.
Z3MCJez said:
Bonefish Blues said:
Agree, yesterday could have been a re-run of this (but faster, I guess, not exactly sure how the speeds compare):
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2kNZzqqdhM0
To be fair to the Caterham, that was Webber's error. He simply didn't appreciate how early a Caterham on old tyres would have to brake. There was no hint that the Caterham was going to shove him onto the grass (wall in Valencia). https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2kNZzqqdhM0
Max is fast, but Monaco (twice) and yesterday and others have shown he's not the finished product. Hardly surprising at 18. But look at Montreal, where he was inch-perfect. He can do it when he's not on the back foot.
Jez
Dr Z said:
A man after my own heart I see! I think you covered most points in the above, however, I think it would be better to list the qualifying positions and race finishing positions rather than as a relative change in positions. As you have pointed out, if you qualify on the front row you are either going backwards or winning so an average qualifying position over a season of <2 means a top car and I don't believe it is right to use stats from that particular season to support the claim that 'Rosberg can only win from the front'.IMO, the only way to determine if a certain driver is a good racer is measure their average finishing position when they don't have a top qualifying car (i.e. average qualifying position>2), and it's a bit unfair (and possibly biased) to then attribute the entire season's worth of data to other competitors retiring. This may hold water if we're talking about the 50s or 60s, however, in the modern era with so many races in a year, the number of outliers affecting the average position will be very small and so won't skew the overall picture you're seeing.
I really ought to get that stats/f1 history thread started soon...
That's the full file. I apologise for any mistakes made! Going off Rosbergs performance in the Williams and early Mercedes he seems to go forward in races. I'm still not convinced the raw data is enough to draw any real conclusions though... just interesting to have a look!
Personally I think Rosberg is still at Mercedes because he's German, not because he's any good. For Mercedes to have a German WDC to go alongside their WCC would be marketing gold at home. He's just not a great driver and with Lewis and Nico being at Mercedes being at Mercedes for another 2 1/2 seasons I can see some proper toys out of the pram strops coming from Nico at some point. half the time you can tell he's only just holding it together and if the RB's get faster again and he actually has to RACE to get points and wins I can see him missing out on Podiums.
If Lewis had stayed at McLaren, as many suggested he should, Nico would be a triple World Champion at the end of this year. While I wholeheartedly agree that he is not as good as Lewis, it is churlish to suggest that he is bad and not deserving of the drive.
Mercedes have a very strong pairing in their drivers. Only RB might be stronger, in the longer term.
Mercedes have a very strong pairing in their drivers. Only RB might be stronger, in the longer term.
rdjohn said:
If Lewis had stayed at McLaren, as many suggested he should, Nico would be a triple World Champion at the end of this year. While I wholeheartedly agree that he is not as good as Lewis, it is churlish to suggest that he is bad and not deserving of the drive.
Mercedes have a very strong pairing in their drivers. Only RB might be stronger, in the longer term.
That depends who was sat beside him really. A total patsy or a washup then yeah, probably but any of the current wdc holders and a couple without would make rosbergs life hard. Hes quick and very consistent but cant race, and from what I've seen and read I dont believe is that handy at setting up the car or finding pace. Copy'n'paste special.Mercedes have a very strong pairing in their drivers. Only RB might be stronger, in the longer term.
rdjohn said:
If Lewis had stayed at McLaren, as many suggested he should, Nico would be a triple World Champion at the end of this year. While I wholeheartedly agree that he is not as good as Lewis, it is churlish to suggest that he is bad and not deserving of the drive.
I think Schumacher would've added to his tally as well so whilst Britney may have got a title there's no garauntee he'd have got three of them. MissChief said:
Personally I think Rosberg is still at Mercedes because he's German, not because he's any good. For Mercedes to have a German WDC to go alongside their WCC would be marketing gold at home. He's just not a great driver and with Lewis and Nico being at Mercedes being at Mercedes for another 2 1/2 seasons I can see some proper toys out of the pram strops coming from Nico at some point. half the time you can tell he's only just holding it together and if the RB's get faster again and he actually has to RACE to get points and wins I can see him missing out on Podiums.
Wrong on the marketing angle in Germany. In Germany most people consider him Monagasque and he also used to race under a Finnish license. He's clearly not a very popular driver internationally (booed for no reason at Spa is one example) and in comparison Hamilton is marketing gold to Mercedes as they want (and are succeeding) in reaching a younger audience for road car buyers which is the only reason they are in F1 in the first place.
I can only think they are happy that he will bring it home if Hamilton fails to win a race but as you correctly say with stronger competition next year this will not be the case.
If we look purely at the numbers, for Hamilton to pull back 60-odd points on Rosberg in the six races prior to Spa is a pretty devastating picture in equal machinery when Rosberg has had no car failiures in races.
If a driver other than Rosberg were in the other Mercedes, the question for me is would Hamilton have been able to pull that much on his team-mate?
If a driver other than Rosberg were in the other Mercedes, the question for me is would Hamilton have been able to pull that much on his team-mate?
If you cherry pick information you can make anything support your argument. For example, you've (cgt2)written several times that Redbull have outscored Rosberg in the last few GPs. The fact is that Rosberg was leading the WDC for the vast majority of 2014 and 2016 so far. Yes, Hamilton has had more success and won two drivers championships, but Rosberg has hardly done a bad job. And it certainly doesn't warrant you derailing every single F1 thread with your anti Rosberg posts.
All i have to say about the race is that Max needs to spend a little time thinking about what an awful lot of people both on and off the track have been saying about his 'defensive' driving.
He needs to address this very soon or else someone is going to get hurt.
I am all for being robust but this guy is way across the line.
He needs to address this very soon or else someone is going to get hurt.
I am all for being robust but this guy is way across the line.
Rude-boy said:
All i have to say about the race is that Max needs to spend a little time thinking about what an awful lot of people both on and off the track have been saying about his 'defensive' driving.
He needs to address this very soon or else someone is going to get hurt.
I am all for being robust but this guy is way across the line.
Indeed. The way CH was speaking after the race it was clear that he though Max was in the wrong too. In modern F1 it's one thing to put life and limb at risk, but a whole lot worse to possibly tarnish the brand you're racing for. I'm guessing the limited edition can of Red Bull Max may be on hold until the dust settles.He needs to address this very soon or else someone is going to get hurt.
I am all for being robust but this guy is way across the line.
I think taking all the stats and points aside, Sunday suggests that it will be Hamilton's year again.
F1 has a funny habit of swinging luck and momentum around and you can nearly always pick the guy who has things going his way into the latter half of the season.
For Hamilton to take all those penalties, start at the back and still make it onto the podium has to be the writing on the wall for Rosberg.
He needed not only to win on Sunday, but for Hamilton to have a nightmare, not getting points and consequently retaking the lead and some momentum. Now Hamilton has the lead, no engine penalties, the luck and the momentum.
I'm no Hamilton fan but he's brought this one back round for himself and no mistake.
F1 has a funny habit of swinging luck and momentum around and you can nearly always pick the guy who has things going his way into the latter half of the season.
For Hamilton to take all those penalties, start at the back and still make it onto the podium has to be the writing on the wall for Rosberg.
He needed not only to win on Sunday, but for Hamilton to have a nightmare, not getting points and consequently retaking the lead and some momentum. Now Hamilton has the lead, no engine penalties, the luck and the momentum.
I'm no Hamilton fan but he's brought this one back round for himself and no mistake.
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