16 injector manifold
Discussion
not planning on running different fuel,larger injectors will only be for increased fuel demand as boost increases, rails are indeed linked together fuel enters at the top (larger injectors) and returns to digital regulator through lower rail. Don't know if MS will support fuel switching
xrtim said:
not planning on running different fuel,larger injectors will only be for increased fuel demand as boost increases, rails are indeed linked together fuel enters at the top (larger injectors) and returns to digital regulator through lower rail. Don't know if MS will support fuel switching
Was a bit of a long shot I now but you never know what's coming out these days! 
Any reason for not just fitting larger injectors in the stock location?
The MS3 PRO may well do what you are asking, iatest update is you can specify an ls loom so all plugs in no wiring sensors up (no good for me as most of my sensors have been moved/changed or added to), I went for two sizes of injectors rather than one larger one for a few reasons,should give me more control of fuelling at idle and low rpms as its got to pass emissions(ms has full sequential injector and spark control for v8) and while on boost the larger injector will never lean the engine out.The MS3 PRO will do this and much more. 
Can you tell me what the fuel cap looking things are on top of each of your Charger coolers are ??? Intrigued as to what they are. What HP level you aiming for seeing as you've gone 16 injector ? I'm only wanting 1100 hp and was told by many that 8 Injectors would be fine for that application. Are you going twin fuel system ? Always interested to see what others are doing on a V8 Turbo Application 
The parts on the charge coolers are for a cold air feed. I'm planning on using the area around the fuel filler pipe to house the filter and the space between the fuel tank and side pod to supply the air from underneath the car using those parts. My worry with large injectors is the control at small pulse widths so to make sure that the engine will pass emissions I decided to go the twin injector route and sequential injection. The fuel system is Fuelab variable speed in standard configuration from switchable tanks, if I start to rum into detonation problems I'm going to go methanol injection rather than high octane fuel (can't imagine I will be on boost long). I have a small space left where I can get a decent size tank into. Power wise we will see, got my eye on the G9 Lingenfelter cam quite a bit tamer than my original choice and the same with the crank stroke, I'm looking more at the 3.268 and increase the rpm potential and increase economy on light throttle. Loom wise I,m going to have a go myself even though I hate electrics 
Tim, have you thought about front mounted low temp radiators like the EVO uses? Could maybe use them in conjunction with the dads you are planning to really get the water temps down!
Like the idea of a second bank of injectors for methanol. Alternatively you could run flex fuel sensor and a boost pressure operated fuel pump. Ie low boost will run normal fuel only and high boost will run methanol and normal fuel mixed.
Like the idea of a second bank of injectors for methanol. Alternatively you could run flex fuel sensor and a boost pressure operated fuel pump. Ie low boost will run normal fuel only and high boost will run methanol and normal fuel mixed.
will be using a larger radiator for the charge coolers mounted above passengers fuel tank and a high flow 80lpm water pump so should get the air temps down well. Methanol injection will be by snow performance or aem if I have detonation problems and will need to drill and tap the manifold for the extra nozzles, I have seen a v8 injection kit on ebay with a nozzle per cylinder that looks really good but think its a bit OTT.
Any one know of an off the shelf radiator that will fit above the passenger fuel tank ? maybe a bike rad.
Any one know of an off the shelf radiator that will fit above the passenger fuel tank ? maybe a bike rad.
xrtim said:
not planning on running different fuel,larger injectors will only be for increased fuel demand as boost increases, rails are indeed linked together fuel enters at the top (larger injectors) and returns to digital regulator through lower rail. Don't know if MS will support fuel switching
Interesting build, What digital regulator are you using?Digital regulator is Fuelab, it controls fuel pump speed depending on the engines fuel demand.
I have no first hand experience of water/methanol injection so can only give a reply on what I have read and the research I have done.
Rather than a cure for a poor tune I see water/methanol injection as a means to run more boost and make more power safely in much the same way as you would with twin fuel /dual fuel system where you switch to a higher octane fuel under boost to avoid detonation. Instead of adding more fuel to use as an extra cooling medium as the boost increases you can add water/methanol and keep the air fuel ratios higher using less fuel. The methanol injection also keeps the combustion area clean and the last time I looked water and windscreen washer fluid was far more accessible and way cheaper than high octane fuel.You can also carry some mixed ready to top up in the car. As far as I can see water/methanol injection has far more positives than negatives
If any member with first hand experience of water/methanol injection can give some feedback on their systems or experience I would be grateful
Tim
I have no first hand experience of water/methanol injection so can only give a reply on what I have read and the research I have done.
Rather than a cure for a poor tune I see water/methanol injection as a means to run more boost and make more power safely in much the same way as you would with twin fuel /dual fuel system where you switch to a higher octane fuel under boost to avoid detonation. Instead of adding more fuel to use as an extra cooling medium as the boost increases you can add water/methanol and keep the air fuel ratios higher using less fuel. The methanol injection also keeps the combustion area clean and the last time I looked water and windscreen washer fluid was far more accessible and way cheaper than high octane fuel.You can also carry some mixed ready to top up in the car. As far as I can see water/methanol injection has far more positives than negatives
If any member with first hand experience of water/methanol injection can give some feedback on their systems or experience I would be grateful
Tim
Having gone through the madness of a turbo monster build I can shed some light on this. Both my build and yours shared similarities, turbo, progressive fuel (though I controlled mine via ms3x), and water/alcohol/meth injection. I did the same thing initially, relying on water/meth mix to tame air temps and detonation, and I put in safe guards to pull timing when the water/meth ran out. The problem I kept having was constantly running out of water/meth mix in inconvenient places, and the frustration of being down on power suddenly when having fun. I could easily blow through a 4 liter reservoir of water/meth mix in 20-30 minutes of track time or very spirited driving. I had to change my setup quite a bit to correct the issue and not be reliant on water/meth at all, and then use it only as insurance on hot days (some tracks here can hit 43-45C in summer). I'd like to see your heat exchangers and where they're mounted, i fear that if the core doesn't have enough volume you will heat soak even at moderate speeds.
My take away lessons were this:
you can't over-cool an air/water heat exchanger for turbo cars
don't rely on fans to make airflow, it's just another thing to fail
use as large a water reservoir as you can
keep piping insulated and away from heat sources as much as possible
water injection is insurance, not an intercooler
meth injection is great for a drag car, not optimal for a circuit car
Source:
I've built and consulted on monster NA and turbo time attack and hill climb cars for the past 16 years. I have made a lot of mistakes and spend a lot of money needlessly putting bandaids on bad decisions.
My take away lessons were this:
you can't over-cool an air/water heat exchanger for turbo cars
don't rely on fans to make airflow, it's just another thing to fail
use as large a water reservoir as you can
keep piping insulated and away from heat sources as much as possible
water injection is insurance, not an intercooler
meth injection is great for a drag car, not optimal for a circuit car
Source:
I've built and consulted on monster NA and turbo time attack and hill climb cars for the past 16 years. I have made a lot of mistakes and spend a lot of money needlessly putting bandaids on bad decisions.
xrtim said:
Digital regulator is Fuelab, it controls fuel pump speed depending on the engines fuel demand.
I have no first hand experience of water/methanol injection so can only give a reply on what I have read and the research I have done.
Rather than a cure for a poor tune I see water/methanol injection as a means to run more boost and make more power safely in much the same way as you would with twin fuel /dual fuel system where you switch to a higher octane fuel under boost to avoid detonation. Instead of adding more fuel to use as an extra cooling medium as the boost increases you can add water/methanol and keep the air fuel ratios higher using less fuel. The methanol injection also keeps the combustion area clean and the last time I looked water and windscreen washer fluid was far more accessible and way cheaper than high octane fuel.You can also carry some mixed ready to top up in the car. As far as I can see water/methanol injection has far more positives than negatives
If any member with first hand experience of water/methanol injection can give some feedback on their systems or experience I would be grateful
Tim
I have no first hand experience of water/methanol injection so can only give a reply on what I have read and the research I have done.
Rather than a cure for a poor tune I see water/methanol injection as a means to run more boost and make more power safely in much the same way as you would with twin fuel /dual fuel system where you switch to a higher octane fuel under boost to avoid detonation. Instead of adding more fuel to use as an extra cooling medium as the boost increases you can add water/methanol and keep the air fuel ratios higher using less fuel. The methanol injection also keeps the combustion area clean and the last time I looked water and windscreen washer fluid was far more accessible and way cheaper than high octane fuel.You can also carry some mixed ready to top up in the car. As far as I can see water/methanol injection has far more positives than negatives
If any member with first hand experience of water/methanol injection can give some feedback on their systems or experience I would be grateful
Tim
Thanks for the reply Humble very much appreciated
Heat exchangers are not yet purchased, I only have a few positions available for mounting them, all of them not ideal
The easiest from a plumbing and large heat exchanger size point of view is in passengers side pod above fuel tank(poor air flow, can be increased with side scoop but large space, will need fans)
from your information maybe I use this to take out most of the heat and then add the 2 x smaller factory exchangers upfront for extra cooling together with a large water tank. I will make do with a smaller water /methanol tank for insurance
Regards Tim
Heat exchangers are not yet purchased, I only have a few positions available for mounting them, all of them not ideal
The easiest from a plumbing and large heat exchanger size point of view is in passengers side pod above fuel tank(poor air flow, can be increased with side scoop but large space, will need fans)
from your information maybe I use this to take out most of the heat and then add the 2 x smaller factory exchangers upfront for extra cooling together with a large water tank. I will make do with a smaller water /methanol tank for insurance
Regards Tim
I worry that heat exchangers in the sides won't allow the core thickness needed or airflow for decent cooling. I have seen another ultima run the ATL fuel cells where the luggage pods go and that frees up the area where the fuel tanks normally sit to make room for heat exchangers, but you lose nearly all cargo capacity. Ideally you would put the heat exchanger up front that either A) sits in front of the entire radiator or B) is a smaller thicker core that sits in front of the radiator with ducting to grab just a portion of the airflow. Honestly, I think it would be best to reduce complexity and just keep the heat exchangers up front, use a thick core that is half height and enough flow through that AN12 or AN16 lines can be used. You'd have to do the math to see if the volume would work out but I think that would be the most effective without impacting the engine cooling too much.
Will
Will
xrtim said:
Thanks for the reply Humble very much appreciated
Heat exchangers are not yet purchased, I only have a few positions available for mounting them, all of them not ideal
The easiest from a plumbing and large heat exchanger size point of view is in passengers side pod above fuel tank(poor air flow, can be increased with side scoop but large space, will need fans)
from your information maybe I use this to take out most of the heat and then add the 2 x smaller factory exchangers upfront for extra cooling together with a large water tank. I will make do with a smaller water /methanol tank for insurance
Regards Tim
Heat exchangers are not yet purchased, I only have a few positions available for mounting them, all of them not ideal
The easiest from a plumbing and large heat exchanger size point of view is in passengers side pod above fuel tank(poor air flow, can be increased with side scoop but large space, will need fans)
from your information maybe I use this to take out most of the heat and then add the 2 x smaller factory exchangers upfront for extra cooling together with a large water tank. I will make do with a smaller water /methanol tank for insurance
Regards Tim
hello if i can helpyou, I just finished tuning the L98: comp-cam, hedelbrock like yours and I retarded the camme with some degree, and airbox
with MegaSquirt I have put 65lbh injectors at 3 bar, but the unit tells me would be sufficient even 48lbh .......
with MegaSquirt I have put 65lbh injectors at 3 bar, but the unit tells me would be sufficient even 48lbh .......
Edited by 845ste on Tuesday 23 August 21:58
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