Lewis Hamilton
Discussion
It amuses me that some folk seem incapable of accepting this fact and harp back to some other time in history.
We have to hope that Mercedes are under extreme pressure next year, maybe even having to back one driver over the other, just to make the WCC look more exciting. Much as i have enjoyed the Lewis Vs Nico charade, I want to see some competetive racing, between different teams with different drivers.
We have to hope that Mercedes are under extreme pressure next year, maybe even having to back one driver over the other, just to make the WCC look more exciting. Much as i have enjoyed the Lewis Vs Nico charade, I want to see some competetive racing, between different teams with different drivers.
cjm said:
C70R said:
I presume that ignores 2011 or 2013, where Vettel was unbelievably dominant, winning more than half the races. It's amazing how short some people's memories are...
If you look at the constructors points since 2010 Mercs has been far more dominant than Redbull ever were.At any rate, my point was in response to the "there were others" point. In 2011/12/13, the maximum number of races won by any other driver was 3. That's right. Three. While, in the meantime, Seb won more than half the races.
If that's not "dominance", I don't know what is.
C70R said:
cjm said:
C70R said:
I presume that ignores 2011 or 2013, where Vettel was unbelievably dominant, winning more than half the races. It's amazing how short some people's memories are...
If you look at the constructors points since 2010 Mercs has been far more dominant than Redbull ever were.At any rate, my point was in response to the "there were others" point. In 2011/12/13, the maximum number of races won by any other driver was 3. That's right. Three. While, in the meantime, Seb won more than half the races.
If that's not "dominance", I don't know what is.
But I do think that from my memory despite Red Bull dominance you felt that the other teams at least were able to enter races thinking they could do something to win, where as now it seems like they set a race strategy based on who fills the 3rd and 4th spot and hope the Mercs break or they crash into each other....
In reality if your following F1 for the sport as I am and not as a fan of Merc, Nico or Lewis it's all a bit rubbish as far as a competition to win.... but some of the stuff going on behind the Merc's has been awesome at times.
tommunster10 said:
C70R said:
cjm said:
C70R said:
I presume that ignores 2011 or 2013, where Vettel was unbelievably dominant, winning more than half the races. It's amazing how short some people's memories are...
If you look at the constructors points since 2010 Mercs has been far more dominant than Redbull ever were.At any rate, my point was in response to the "there were others" point. In 2011/12/13, the maximum number of races won by any other driver was 3. That's right. Three. While, in the meantime, Seb won more than half the races.
If that's not "dominance", I don't know what is.
But I do think that from my memory despite Red Bull dominance you felt that the other teams at least were able to enter races thinking they could do something to win, where as now it seems like they set a race strategy based on who fills the 3rd and 4th spot and hope the Mercs break or they crash into each other....
In reality if your following F1 for the sport as I am and not as a fan of Merc, Nico or Lewis it's all a bit rubbish as far as a competition to win.... but some of the stuff going on behind the Merc's has been awesome at times.
I can still find plenty to enjoy in a weekend's racing.
To look back on seasons passed with rose-tinted glasses sometimes omits the things that don't fit with our theories.
Plenty of manufacturers have enjoyed purple patches and consecutive WDC wins since the mid-80s (4-in-a-row for Williams, 5/6 for McLaren, 5-in-a-row for Ferrari, 4-in-a row for RB), so this idea of "dominance" isn't suddenly appearing because of Mercedes (who, remember, have only won two consecutive WDC titles).
C70R said:
tommunster10 said:
C70R said:
cjm said:
C70R said:
I presume that ignores 2011 or 2013, where Vettel was unbelievably dominant, winning more than half the races. It's amazing how short some people's memories are...
If you look at the constructors points since 2010 Mercs has been far more dominant than Redbull ever were.At any rate, my point was in response to the "there were others" point. In 2011/12/13, the maximum number of races won by any other driver was 3. That's right. Three. While, in the meantime, Seb won more than half the races.
If that's not "dominance", I don't know what is.
But I do think that from my memory despite Red Bull dominance you felt that the other teams at least were able to enter races thinking they could do something to win, where as now it seems like they set a race strategy based on who fills the 3rd and 4th spot and hope the Mercs break or they crash into each other....
In reality if your following F1 for the sport as I am and not as a fan of Merc, Nico or Lewis it's all a bit rubbish as far as a competition to win.... but some of the stuff going on behind the Merc's has been awesome at times.
I can still find plenty to enjoy in a weekend's racing.
To look back on seasons passed with rose-tinted glasses sometimes omits the things that don't fit with our theories.
Plenty of manufacturers have enjoyed purple patches and consecutive WDC wins since the mid-80s (4-in-a-row for Williams, 5/6 for McLaren, 5-in-a-row for Ferrari, 4-in-a row for RB), so this idea of "dominance" isn't suddenly appearing because of Mercedes (who, remember, have only won two consecutive WDC titles).
They were meant to stop the Red Bull dominance and instead we got Merc dominance. Personally i strongly believe that stick a Merc engine (well factory Merc engine) in the Red Bull and McLaren and we have a race on our hands....
C70R said:
Vettel won 2011 and 2013 by more than ONE HUNDRED POINTS. He's undoubtedly a fine driver, but you can't possibly say that it doesn't demonstrate the dominance of the car.
At any rate, my point was in response to the "there were others" point. In 2011/12/13, the maximum number of races won by any other driver was 3. That's right. Three. While, in the meantime, Seb won more than half the races.
If that's not "dominance", I don't know what is.
I wasn't denying that the Redbull was a dominant car from 2010-13, I was saying that the Merc has an even bigger advantage, and as I said the constructors points highlight this.At any rate, my point was in response to the "there were others" point. In 2011/12/13, the maximum number of races won by any other driver was 3. That's right. Three. While, in the meantime, Seb won more than half the races.
If that's not "dominance", I don't know what is.
Constructors Winning Margins:
2010-44pts
2011-153pts
2012-60pts
2013-236pts
2014-296pts
2015-275pts
2016-236pts (at the moment)
I think a point for fastest lap could make things a bit more interesting as well?
Edited by cjm on Wednesday 26th October 11:57
tommunster10 said:
C70R said:
tommunster10 said:
C70R said:
cjm said:
C70R said:
I presume that ignores 2011 or 2013, where Vettel was unbelievably dominant, winning more than half the races. It's amazing how short some people's memories are...
If you look at the constructors points since 2010 Mercs has been far more dominant than Redbull ever were.At any rate, my point was in response to the "there were others" point. In 2011/12/13, the maximum number of races won by any other driver was 3. That's right. Three. While, in the meantime, Seb won more than half the races.
If that's not "dominance", I don't know what is.
But I do think that from my memory despite Red Bull dominance you felt that the other teams at least were able to enter races thinking they could do something to win, where as now it seems like they set a race strategy based on who fills the 3rd and 4th spot and hope the Mercs break or they crash into each other....
In reality if your following F1 for the sport as I am and not as a fan of Merc, Nico or Lewis it's all a bit rubbish as far as a competition to win.... but some of the stuff going on behind the Merc's has been awesome at times.
I can still find plenty to enjoy in a weekend's racing.
To look back on seasons passed with rose-tinted glasses sometimes omits the things that don't fit with our theories.
Plenty of manufacturers have enjoyed purple patches and consecutive WDC wins since the mid-80s (4-in-a-row for Williams, 5/6 for McLaren, 5-in-a-row for Ferrari, 4-in-a row for RB), so this idea of "dominance" isn't suddenly appearing because of Mercedes (who, remember, have only won two consecutive WDC titles).
They were meant to stop the Red Bull dominance and instead we got Merc dominance. Personally i strongly believe that stick a Merc engine (well factory Merc engine) in the Red Bull and McLaren and we have a race on our hands....
cjm said:
C70R said:
Vettel won 2011 and 2013 by more than ONE HUNDRED POINTS. He's undoubtedly a fine driver, but you can't possibly say that it doesn't demonstrate the dominance of the car.
At any rate, my point was in response to the "there were others" point. In 2011/12/13, the maximum number of races won by any other driver was 3. That's right. Three. While, in the meantime, Seb won more than half the races.
If that's not "dominance", I don't know what is.
I wasn't denying that the Redbull was a dominant car from 2010-13, I was saying that the Merc has an even bigger advantage, and as I said the constructors points highlight this.At any rate, my point was in response to the "there were others" point. In 2011/12/13, the maximum number of races won by any other driver was 3. That's right. Three. While, in the meantime, Seb won more than half the races.
If that's not "dominance", I don't know what is.
Constructors Winning Margins:
2010-44pts
2011-153pts
2012-60pts
2013-236pts
2014-296pts
2015-275pts
2016-236pts (at the moment)
I think a point for fastest lap could make things a bit more interesting as well?
Edited by cjm on Wednesday 26th October 11:57
2010 and 2012 were undoubtedly closer seasons (fewer tyre sets in 2010 and aero crackdown in 2012), but it's worth remembering that 2010 was a 1-3 finish in the WDC for RB, with Seb and Wibber taking 9/19 race wins between them.
C70R said:
cjm said:
C70R said:
Vettel won 2011 and 2013 by more than ONE HUNDRED POINTS. He's undoubtedly a fine driver, but you can't possibly say that it doesn't demonstrate the dominance of the car.
At any rate, my point was in response to the "there were others" point. In 2011/12/13, the maximum number of races won by any other driver was 3. That's right. Three. While, in the meantime, Seb won more than half the races.
If that's not "dominance", I don't know what is.
I wasn't denying that the Redbull was a dominant car from 2010-13, I was saying that the Merc has an even bigger advantage, and as I said the constructors points highlight this.At any rate, my point was in response to the "there were others" point. In 2011/12/13, the maximum number of races won by any other driver was 3. That's right. Three. While, in the meantime, Seb won more than half the races.
If that's not "dominance", I don't know what is.
Constructors Winning Margins:
2010-44pts
2011-153pts
2012-60pts
2013-236pts
2014-296pts
2015-275pts
2016-236pts (at the moment)
I think a point for fastest lap could make things a bit more interesting as well?
Edited by cjm on Wednesday 26th October 11:57
2010 and 2012 were undoubtedly closer seasons (fewer tyre sets in 2010 and aero crackdown in 2012), but it's worth remembering that 2010 was a 1-3 finish in the WDC for RB, with Seb and Wibber taking 9/19 race wins between them.
| 2010 | Points | % | 2010-End | Points | % |
|---|---|---|---|---|---|
| Hamilton | 145 | - | Vettel | 256 | - |
| Button | 133 | 92% | Alonso | 252 | 98% |
| Webber | 128 | 88% | Webber | 242 | 95% |
| Vettel | 121 | 83% | Hamilton | 240 | 94% |
| Alonso | 98 | 68% | Button | 214 | 84% |
| 2011 | Points | % | 2011-End | Points | % |
| Vettel | 216 | - | Vettel | 392 | - |
| Webber | 139 | 64% | Button | 270 | 69% |
| Hamilton | 134 | 62% | Webber | 258 | 66% |
| Alonso | 130 | 60% | Alonso | 257 | 66% |
| Button | 109 | 50% | Hamilton | 227 | 58% |
| 2012 | Points | % | 2012-End | Points | % |
| Alonso | 154 | - | Vettel | 281 | - |
| Webber | 120 | 78% | Alonso | 278 | 98% |
| Vettel | 110 | 71% | Raikkonen | 207 | 74% |
| Raikkonen | 98 | 64% | Hamilton | 190 | 68% |
| Hamilton | 92 | 60% | Button | 188 | 67% |
| 2013 | Points | % | 2013-End | Points | % |
| Vettel | 172 | - | Vettel | 397 | - |
| Raikkonen | 134 | 78% | Alonso | 242 | 61% |
| Alonso | 133 | 77% | Webber | 199 | 50% |
| Hamilton | 124 | 72% | Hamilton | 189 | 48% |
| Webber | 105 | 61% | Raikkonen | 183 | 46% |
| 2014 | Points | % | 2014-End | Points | % |
| Rosberg | 190 | - | Hamilton | 384 | - |
| Hamilton | 176 | 93% | Rosberg | 317 | 83% |
| Ricciardo | 106 | 56% | Ricciardo | 238 | 62% |
| Alonso | 97 | 51% | Bottas | 186 | 48% |
| Bottas | 91 | 48% | Vettel | 167 | 43% |
| 2015 | Points | % | 2015-End | Points | % |
| Hamilton | 202 | - | Hamilton | 381 | - |
| Rosberg | 181 | 90% | Rosberg | 322 | 85% |
| Vettel | 160 | 79% | Vettel | 278 | 73% |
| Bottas | 77 | 38% | Raikkonen | 150 | 39% |
| Raikkonen | 76 | 38% | Bottas | 136 | 36% |
| 2016 | Points | % | - | - | - |
| Rosberg | 168 | - | - | - | - |
| Hamilton | 167 | 99% | - | - | - |
| Raikkonen | 106 | 63% | - | - | - |
| Ricciardo | 100 | 60% | - | - | - |
| Vettel | 98 | 58% | - | - | - |
The difference between the two teams I can see is that Webber looks weaker relative to Vettel in 2011-2013, masking how dominant the car is. But that's due to his style not suiting the Pirellis and Vettel generally getting on better with the car--I'm not even sure we could call it dominance when only one driver appears to extract the maximum from the car and therefore looks on another level to everyone else. In contrast, the Mercedes dominance is on another level precisely because of two drivers who can extract the best from the car.
I'm in general agreement with the sentiment that with Mercedes dominance, a driver from another team would feel he has absolutely no chance at a WDC shot, whereas with RBR, you felt that you could beat them. This was also because while RBR as a team had a fast car, they were also more error prone and reliability was always a factor. With Mercedes, even reliability issues hasn't hampered them as much as RBR. As acknowledged, in 2010 and 2012, a driver from another team was leading the points table at the halfway point, highlighting this very point.
Even in 2013, Raikkonen was trailing at a similar points deficit that Vettel did last year where you still felt he had a small chance. It was widely reported that RBR decided to push on with developing their car in the latter half of 2013, to secure the WCC/WDC while other teams wound down their car developments (notice how Webber jumps from 5th at the halfway point to 3rd at the end).
Another point is with RBR, a lot of their tricks were aero and you could always bring developments every race until you get it right, whereas with engine tech, the whole token system and the long lead times helped to lock in the Mercedes dominance for far longer than necessary. IMO, the whole thing should have been opened up last year.
Okay, some of RBR's performance was due to the EBD but again, these are not something that was locked in the homologation regs. The engine manufacturers could still bring developments that weren't restricted by bloody tokens!
KevinCamaroSS said:
Another point to note is that RB really ran one driver, and were not so bothered where no.2 finished. Whereas Merc want their cars to finish 1-2 every race if possible.
Disagree. The tyre strategies during the races mirror very much what Mercedes do nowadays when one driver is stuck in the pack with the other one leading. The aim was very much to finish 1st in the WCC for RBR. It so happened that one driver got on better than the other overall. The politics can't be denied but I would argue that the on-track performance of the drivers can be largely put down to on-track reasons.Dr Z said:
The difference between the two teams I can see is that Webber looks weaker relative to Vettel in 2011-2013, masking how dominant the car is. But that's due to his style not suiting the Pirellis and Vettel generally getting on better with the car--I'm not even sure we could call it dominance when only one driver appears to extract the maximum from the car and therefore looks on another level to everyone else. In contrast, the Mercedes dominance is on another level precisely because of two drivers who can extract the best from the car.
I think you might be overstating this a bit, if I'm honest. Rosberg is a far more talented driver than Webber (no matter how much I love Mark), and you only need look at the disparity in their pre-F1 careers to see that. Moreover, I firmly believe that the 2010-2013 RB was one of the most lead-driver-focused cars in F1 history (including Schuey's Ferrari), built to suit Seb's driving style and developed for him. As such, it's hard to compare the roles of Rosberg and Webber, and even more surprising that the latter did so well (emphasising the quality of the RB).All IMHO, of course.
C70R said:
Dr Z said:
The difference between the two teams I can see is that Webber looks weaker relative to Vettel in 2011-2013, masking how dominant the car is. But that's due to his style not suiting the Pirellis and Vettel generally getting on better with the car--I'm not even sure we could call it dominance when only one driver appears to extract the maximum from the car and therefore looks on another level to everyone else. In contrast, the Mercedes dominance is on another level precisely because of two drivers who can extract the best from the car.
I think you might be overstating this a bit, if I'm honest. Rosberg is a far more talented driver than Webber (no matter how much I love Mark), and you only need look at the disparity in their pre-F1 careers to see that. Moreover, I firmly believe that the 2010-2013 RB was one of the most lead-driver-focused cars in F1 history (including Schuey's Ferrari), built to suit Seb's driving style and developed for him. As such, it's hard to compare the roles of Rosberg and Webber, and even more surprising that the latter did so well (emphasising the quality of the RB).All IMHO, of course.
Engineers build the fastest car they can at the edge of the regulations. Driver adaptability comes into it, but not at the sacrifice of speed, and certainly not for Newey cars! I cannot imagine Newey coming up a way to seal the diffuser using exhaust gases, with the foresight that Vettel will go on to use it with good effect!
It's the same at Mercedes. He who adapts, wins.Dr Z said:
C70R said:
Dr Z said:
The difference between the two teams I can see is that Webber looks weaker relative to Vettel in 2011-2013, masking how dominant the car is. But that's due to his style not suiting the Pirellis and Vettel generally getting on better with the car--I'm not even sure we could call it dominance when only one driver appears to extract the maximum from the car and therefore looks on another level to everyone else. In contrast, the Mercedes dominance is on another level precisely because of two drivers who can extract the best from the car.
I think you might be overstating this a bit, if I'm honest. Rosberg is a far more talented driver than Webber (no matter how much I love Mark), and you only need look at the disparity in their pre-F1 careers to see that. Moreover, I firmly believe that the 2010-2013 RB was one of the most lead-driver-focused cars in F1 history (including Schuey's Ferrari), built to suit Seb's driving style and developed for him. As such, it's hard to compare the roles of Rosberg and Webber, and even more surprising that the latter did so well (emphasising the quality of the RB).All IMHO, of course.
Engineers build the fastest car they can at the edge of the regulations. Driver adaptability comes into it, but not at the sacrifice of speed, and certainly not for Newey cars! I cannot imagine Newey coming up a way to seal the diffuser using exhaust gases, with the foresight that Vettel will go on to use it with good effect!
It's the same at Mercedes. He who adapts, wins.
swisstoni said:
Pretty sure Vettel got all the new aero bits (and anything else) before Webber. Fairly good sign of No.1 status.
Yes, but Mark was cruising towards the end of his career, while the wonderkid was beating all comers, though obviously rubbished on here because his car was perceived as dominant. 
C70R said:
I think you might be overstating this a bit, if I'm honest. Rosberg is a far more talented driver than Webber (no matter how much I love Mark), and you only need look at the disparity in their pre-F1 careers to see that. Moreover, I firmly believe that the 2010-2013 RB was one of the most lead-driver-focused cars in F1 history (including Schuey's Ferrari), built to suit Seb's driving style and developed for him. As such, it's hard to compare the roles of Rosberg and Webber, and even more surprising that the latter did so well (emphasising the quality of the RB).
All IMHO, of course.
I'd disagree, Webber is an under-rated driver, his record prior to F1 stacks up against the best of them, the big caveat being he had to fund it all himself (or with personal sponsors) until 1998, he got no breaks at all until then yet still managed to win the Formula Ford festival at Brands one year. Yes, his F1 career went downhill a bit when Pirelli introduced the new tyres, he appears to be very much a feel it through the car type of driver. The new tyres reduced feel so he lost an edge he previously had. He got his break with MB in 1998 because of his solid results in FF and F3. He also had to contend with the fact that F1 was considered to be the home of European and American drivers, being from Australia he has had to overcome that, in his case by leaving his family and moving to the UK on a shoestring budget.All IMHO, of course.
KevinCamaroSS said:
I'd disagree, Webber is an under-rated driver, his record prior to F1 stacks up against the best of them, the big caveat being he had to fund it all himself (or with personal sponsors) until 1998, he got no breaks at all until then yet still managed to win the Formula Ford festival at Brands one year. Yes, his F1 career went downhill a bit when Pirelli introduced the new tyres, he appears to be very much a feel it through the car type of driver. The new tyres reduced feel so he lost an edge he previously had. He got his break with MB in 1998 because of his solid results in FF and F3. He also had to contend with the fact that F1 was considered to be the home of European and American drivers, being from Australia he has had to overcome that, in his case by leaving his family and moving to the UK on a shoestring budget.
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