Lewis Hamilton

[37chevy]

ok going back to the 1980 season, these are the ones that stand out as being completely out of their depth in a winning car

Heikki Kovilianen in the mclaren
Luca Badoa and Fischicella in the Ferrari
Nelson Piquet jr....in anything
Takuma Sato in the BAR
Verstappen in the Benetton
Andretti In the McLaren
Ivan Capelli In the Ferrari
Nakajimi in the lotus
Cheever in the Renault
Daly in the Williams
Rabaque in the Brabham

so not everyone is capable of winning....and these are the only ones who were fortunate to get into a competitive car.....I some how doubt the likes of palmer, Chilton etc could jump into the merc and win...or finish on the podium. but hey im sure the experts know better than me

[LDN]

I think they could get podiums but I'm not sure why this Merc is being focused on when in context, there' have been many dominant cars... The red Bull would have also allowed anyone to jump in it for a couple of seasons at least, and be up at the top end. This is a bizarre debate. Fastest car makes wins and podiums more likely... well, yes; of course :/

[BrettMRC]

tommunster10 said:

There's a lot of silly things around F1 to make it seem like this, Gary was most likley following the party line. Look at when they pitched an F1 car against a race bike...so they pick Guy Martin on a superbike! Not a MotoGP bike.
Or when Hammond pretended he couldn't even take a corner in an F1 without acting like he had forgot how the basics or driving actually worked. It's dumb and it's done to make F1 look better.
Watch any of Bundles drives in modern F1 cars and you can see how forgiving they really are.
Quite why mega mind engineers and crazy areo that could fly a plane if turned upside down and sticky fat rubber and engine maps etc could render a car undrivable but for a few mere mortals is frankly daft and quite offensive to the engineers...

Edited by tommunster10 on Monday 31st October 20:15

You really do talk an awful lot of rubbish. I do try not to rise to this sort of thing, but honestly - you take the biscuit.

[Derek Smith]

An interesting article on the thread's subject matter:

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/formula-1/2016/11/01/le...

[Teocali]

37chevy said:

ok going back to the 1980 season, these are the ones that stand out as being completely out of their depth in a winning car

....
Luca Badoa and Fischicella in the Ferrari
...

I agree with the point you are making but that Ferrari was terrible!

[LDN]

Derek Smith said:

An interesting article on the thread's subject matter:

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/formula-1/2016/11/01/le...

Nice article; bizarre in as much as it's written as though Hamilton is retiring :/

[Derek Smith]

LDN said:

Derek Smith said:

An interesting article on the thread's subject matter:

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/formula-1/2016/11/01/le...

Nice article; bizarre in as much as it's written as though Hamilton is retiring :/

I think it sounds that way because Johnson is leaving the Telegraph, like most of their reporters whom I read. Come to think of it, all.

He praises Hamilton for speaking his mind, emotion filled at times. This gets him criticised by some on here, but I like it. Compared to another driver's emotional tirades, he's muted. However, I like non-corporate speak.

But apart from that correspondents look for different things in a driver to me. I like to see drivers drive and how they behave in front of the press is not of much concern to me. Some have criticised Hamilton on here for wearing non prescription lenses in glasses. Good on him. I wear glasses because of defective length of arms, so it is nice to know I'm looking cool. I mean, who cares what he looks like? Well, apart from those who don't like his gold chains and such.

[rubystone]

37chevy said:

ok going back to the 1980 season, these are the ones that stand out as being completely out of their depth in a winning car

Heikki Kovilianen in the mclaren
Luca Badoa and Fischicella in the Ferrari
Nelson Piquet jr....in anything
Takuma Sato in the BAR
Verstappen in the Benetton
Andretti In the McLaren
Ivan Capelli In the Ferrari
Nakajimi in the lotus
Cheever in the Renault
Daly in the Williams
Rabaque in the Brabham

so not everyone is capable of winning....and these are the only ones who were fortunate to get into a competitive car.....I some how doubt the likes of palmer, Chilton etc could jump into the merc and win...or finish on the podium. but hey im sure the experts know better than me

I'd strongly argue that none of those cars enjoyed the advantage that the current Mercedes confers on its drivers. I'd not dispute though that some of those drivers were not up to the standard of their peers. But nowadays I really do think that the calibre of drivers on the grid and the quality of even the least competitive car is far higher than the eras you are referring to.

[Dermot O'Logical]

37chevy said:

ok going back to the 1980 season, these are the ones that stand out as being completely out of their depth in a winning car

Heikki Kovilianen in the mclaren
Luca Badoa and Fischicella in the Ferrari
Nelson Piquet jr....in anything
Takuma Sato in the BAR
Verstappen in the Benetton
Andretti In the McLaren
Ivan Capelli In the Ferrari
Nakajimi in the lotus
Cheever in the Renault
Daly in the Williams
Rabaque in the Brabham

so not everyone is capable of winning....and these are the only ones who were fortunate to get into a competitive car.....I some how doubt the likes of palmer, Chilton etc could jump into the merc and win...or finish on the podium. but hey im sure the experts know better than me

You might be taken seriously if you could spell. As to your opinions on the drivers I believe you are trying to refer to, Fisichella and Badoer had no time in the Ferrari before they were thrust into the white heat of a Grand Prix weekend, Nelson Piquet Jr and Takuma Sato were both British Formula 3 champions when the series mattered, and carried the prize of a Superlicence for the winner, and both were a class apart from their rivals at the time. They were never in "winning" F1 cars. Ivan Capelli in a Judd powered Leyton House led Grands Prix against turbo-powered opposition, and almost won the French Grand Prix in 1990, only losing out to Alain Prost in a Ferrari when the Judd's oil pressure started to drop almost within sight of the chequered flag - he finished second.

The other drivers were largely in Formula 1 as a result of their money or connections, and you have confused "winning car" with "team that I've heard of". Again, other than Verstappen Snr, who was Schumacher's team-mate at Benetton in 1995 and Satoru Nakajima in the Lotus, a seat which he occupied as a result of the engine supply deal with Honda, they were not "winning cars". Not at the time, anyway.

[rubystone]

Derek Smith said:

I think it sounds that way because Johnson is leaving the Telegraph, like most of their reporters whom I read. Come to think of it, all.

He praises Hamilton for speaking his mind, emotion filled at times. This gets him criticised by some on here, but I like it. Compared to another driver's emotional tirades, he's muted. However, I like non-corporate speak.

But apart from that correspondents look for different things in a driver to me. I like to see drivers drive and how they behave in front of the press is not of much concern to me. Some have criticised Hamilton on here for wearing non prescription lenses in glasses. Good on him. I wear glasses because of defective length of arms, so it is nice to know I'm looking cool. I mean, who cares what he looks like? Well, apart from those who don't like his gold chains and such.

Daniel confirms what I know about Lewis too. Particularly the comments about his being open in his answers and being polite and courteous. I was lucky enough to spend a couple of hours on Saturday with someone who knew/knows Lewis well and it made interesting conversation, enough to confirm my own experiences with Lewis.

The JB comments were interesting - I'd detected the 'good bloke' thing might be an act, but everyone I know who's has dealings with JB see him as being consistent in his manner and I've personally never experienced anything but positive attitude from him.

[37chevy]

rubystone said:

I'd strongly argue that none of those cars enjoyed the advantage that the current Mercedes confers on its drivers. I'd not dispute though that some of those drivers were not up to the standard of their peers. But nowadays I really do think that the calibre of drivers on the grid and the quality of even the least competitive car is far higher than the eras you are referring to.

cant disagree with that, but my point stands that you cant shove any monkey into a race car

[37chevy]

Dermot O'Logical said:

You might be taken seriously if you could spell. As to your opinions on the drivers I believe you are trying to refer to, Fisichella and Badoer had no time in the Ferrari before they were thrust into the white heat of a Grand Prix weekend, Nelson Piquet Jr and Takuma Sato were both British Formula 3 champions when the series mattered, and carried the prize of a Superlicence for the winner, and both were a class apart from their rivals at the time. They were never in "winning" F1 cars. Ivan Capelli in a Judd powered Leyton House led Grands Prix against turbo-powered opposition, and almost won the French Grand Prix in 1990, only losing out to Alain Prost in a Ferrari when the Judd's oil pressure started to drop almost within sight of the chequered flag - he finished second.

The other drivers were largely in Formula 1 as a result of their money or connections, and you have confused "winning car" with "team that I've heard of". Again, other than Verstappen Snr, who was Schumacher's team-mate at Benetton in 1995 and Satoru Nakajima in the Lotus, a seat which he occupied as a result of the engine supply deal with Honda, they were not "winning cars". Not at the time, anyway.

ok..firstly its not a bloody spelling contest

1)people are arguing that anyone on the grid could jump into a winning car and win...fissi and badoer proved you cant
2)Sato was in a bloody good car....button proved that...multiple podiums and 3rd in the championship.
3)ivan capelli was woeful against his team mate....who was in a winning car (again making my point valid)
4)no I haven't confused anything. ive gone back through the lists of winning cars/ drivers since 1980 on F1s own website and compared the top teams/ drivers who won races in those seasons against their team mates....thus again making my point valid that not everyone can jump into a car and do well...
5) since the Benetton was most certainly a winning car....schmui proved that
6) Nakajimas car was a winning car, twice in that year at the hands of Senna...

You might be taken more seriously if you did your research before complaining about peoples spelling. bh

Edited by 37chevy on Tuesday 1st November 16:30

[tommunster10]

37chevy said:

rubystone said:

I'd strongly argue that none of those cars enjoyed the advantage that the current Mercedes confers on its drivers. I'd not dispute though that some of those drivers were not up to the standard of their peers. But nowadays I really do think that the calibre of drivers on the grid and the quality of even the least competitive car is far higher than the eras you are referring to.

cant disagree with that, but my point stands that you cant shove any monkey into a race car

True for sure.
But anyway gald someone brought up Hekki:

2008 Formula One Vodafone McLaren Mercedes / races: 18 wins: 1 poles: 1 fastest laps 2 podiums: 3 53pts 7th

2010 Formula One Lotus Racing 19 0 0 0 0 0 20th

In 2008 in a top car (but not as good as the current Merc) he could win and get podiums...
2 years later in back of the grid car........well.... Hekki proves the point very very well, as does Alonso and Button terrible results this season and Alonso wetting himself over a 5th place..

[thegreenhell]

tommunster10 said:

True for sure.
But anyway gald someone brought up Hekki:

2008 Formula One Vodafone McLaren Mercedes 18 1 1 2 3 53 7th

2010 Formula One Lotus Racing 19 0 0 0 0 0 20th

In 2008 in a top car (but not as good as the current Merc) he could win and get podiums...
2 years later in back of the grid car........well.... Hekki proves the point very very well, as does Alonso and Button terrible results this season and Alonso wetting himself over a 5th place..

Heikki came into F1 having won the World Series By Nissan and then finishing runner up to Nico Rosberg in GP2. He did enough in his first season with Renault to earn the seat vacated by Alonso at McLaren. In 2008, as you pointed out, he scored one win and a couple of other podiums to finish 7th in the championship. Great. However, his team mate that year won the championship. Both Mclaren drivers that year were in only their second season in F1, so you can't blame the inexperience of youth. Heikki was really nowhere that season, almost invisible.

After a few years in the tail end Charlie of a Caterham he had a chance to race the Enstone Lotus, replacing Kimi at the back end of 2013 for two races. That year's Lotus was a race winner, albeit only once, but also a regular podium finisher for both of the regular team drivers. Heikki finished 14th, twice.

What this shows, if anything, is that someone who was rated highly with a good junior record had not one but two chances in race-winning cars, and both times was way off the pace of his team mates.

[LDN]

tommunster10 said:

37chevy said:

rubystone said:

I'd strongly argue that none of those cars enjoyed the advantage that the current Mercedes confers on its drivers. I'd not dispute though that some of those drivers were not up to the standard of their peers. But nowadays I really do think that the calibre of drivers on the grid and the quality of even the least competitive car is far higher than the eras you are referring to.

cant disagree with that, but my point stands that you cant shove any monkey into a race car

True for sure.
But anyway gald someone brought up Hekki:

2008 Formula One Vodafone McLaren Mercedes / races: 18 wins: 1 poles: 1 fastest laps 2 podiums: 3 53pts 7th

2010 Formula One Lotus Racing 19 0 0 0 0 0 20th

In 2008 in a top car (but not as good as the current Merc) he could win and get podiums...
2 years later in back of the grid car........well.... Hekki proves the point very very well, as does Alonso and Button terrible results this season and Alonso wetting himself over a 5th place..

Yes, once again... fast car means wins and podiums possible... what's the point being made here. That can't be it because it's like saying water is blue. It's not even a debate. If you're trying to say Hamilton isn't as good as the car makes him seem; I think you're wrong. I think he's the best (or was) racer out there. I get the feeling Max will be the new wonder kid. Who knows.

[LDN]

thegreenhell said:

tommunster10 said:

True for sure.
But anyway gald someone brought up Hekki:

2008 Formula One Vodafone McLaren Mercedes 18 1 1 2 3 53 7th

2010 Formula One Lotus Racing 19 0 0 0 0 0 20th

In 2008 in a top car (but not as good as the current Merc) he could win and get podiums...
2 years later in back of the grid car........well.... Hekki proves the point very very well, as does Alonso and Button terrible results this season and Alonso wetting himself over a 5th place..

Heikki came into F1 having won the World Series By Nissan and then finishing runner up to Nico Rosberg in GP2. He did enough in his first season with Renault to earn the seat vacated by Alonso at McLaren. In 2008, as you pointed out, he scored one win and a couple of other podiums to finish 7th in the championship. Great. However, his team mate that year won the championship. Both Mclaren drivers that year were in only their second season in F1, so you can't blame the inexperience of youth. Heikki was really nowhere that season, almost invisible.

After a few years in the tail end Charlie of a Caterham he had a chance to race the Enstone Lotus, replacing Kimi at the back end of 2013 for two races. That year's Lotus was a race winner, albeit only once, but also a regular podium finisher for both of the regular team drivers. Heikki finished 14th, twice.

What this shows, if anything, is that someone who was rated highly with a good junior record had not one but two chances in race-winning cars, and both times was way off the pace of his team mates.

Hmmmm; fair point and a worthy stance I'd say.

[Dermot O'Logical]

37chevy said:

ok..firstly its not a bloody spelling contest

1)people are arguing that anyone on the grid could jump into a winning car and win...fissi and badoer proved you cant
2)Sato was in a winning car....button proved that.
3)ivan capelli was woeful against his team mate....who was in a winning car (again making my point valid)
4)no I haven't confused anything. ive gone back through the lists of winning cars/ drivers since 1980 on F1s own website and compared the top teams/ drivers who won races in those seasons against their team mates....thus again making my point valid that not everyone can jump into a car and do well...
5) since the Benetton was most certainly a winning car....schmui proved that
6) Nakajimas car was a winning car, twice in that year at the hands of Senna...

You might be taken more seriously if you did your research before complaining about peoples spelling. bh

It isn't a spelling contest. It is a public internet forum, open for all to see. Feel free to crack on, but you might want to try a few capital letters as well. You know, for names and proper nouns.

Anyway. I was agreeing with you in the instances of Nakajima and Verstappen. Nobody would claim that they weren't in winning cars, although they were there very much as Number 2 drivers, and they knew that.

I have a lot of time for Ivan Capelli, and in a desperately underfunded Leyton House (incidentally Adrian Newey's first Formula 1 car) he outperformed the car on a regular basis. His move to Ferrari was, with the benefit of hindsight, a mistake, bringing with it the pressure of being an Italian driver. Capelli was at his best in smaller teams, the vituperative Italian press making life at Ferrari difficult for anybody, but an Italian driver in the talismanic team was under more pressure than could be imagined. Alongside Jean Alesi he gave a good account of himself.

I think that in many cases it's a question of a driver being drafted into a team with a winning car but not always being able or allowed to do well.

[LDN]

Dermot O'Logical said:

37chevy said:

ok..firstly its not a bloody spelling contest

1)people are arguing that anyone on the grid could jump into a winning car and win...fissi and badoer proved you cant
2)Sato was in a winning car....button proved that.
3)ivan capelli was woeful against his team mate....who was in a winning car (again making my point valid)
4)no I haven't confused anything. ive gone back through the lists of winning cars/ drivers since 1980 on F1s own website and compared the top teams/ drivers who won races in those seasons against their team mates....thus again making my point valid that not everyone can jump into a car and do well...
5) since the Benetton was most certainly a winning car....schmui proved that
6) Nakajimas car was a winning car, twice in that year at the hands of Senna...

You might be taken more seriously if you did your research before complaining about peoples spelling. bh

Anyway. I was agreeing with you in

I think that in many cases it's a question of a driver being drafted into a team with a winning car but not always being able or allowed to do well.

You mean like anybody teamed with Schuey

As for spelling; let the man spell how he wants; if you can understand it then the jobs a good'un.

[tommunster10]

thegreenhell said:

tommunster10 said:

True for sure.
But anyway gald someone brought up Hekki:

2008 Formula One Vodafone McLaren Mercedes 18 1 1 2 3 53 7th

2010 Formula One Lotus Racing 19 0 0 0 0 0 20th

In 2008 in a top car (but not as good as the current Merc) he could win and get podiums...
2 years later in back of the grid car........well.... Hekki proves the point very very well, as does Alonso and Button terrible results this season and Alonso wetting himself over a 5th place..

Heikki came into F1 having won the World Series By Nissan and then finishing runner up to Nico Rosberg in GP2. He did enough in his first season with Renault to earn the seat vacated by Alonso at McLaren. In 2008, as you pointed out, he scored one win and a couple of other podiums to finish 7th in the championship. Great. However, his team mate that year won the championship. Both Mclaren drivers that year were in only their second season in F1, so you can't blame the inexperience of youth. Heikki was really nowhere that season, almost invisible.

After a few years in the tail end Charlie of a Caterham he had a chance to race the Enstone Lotus, replacing Kimi at the back end of 2013 for two races. That year's Lotus was a race winner, albeit only once, but also a regular podium finisher for both of the regular team drivers. Heikki finished 14th, twice.

What this shows, if anything, is that someone who was rated highly with a good junior record had not one but two chances in race-winning cars, and both times was way off the pace of his team mates.

But switching the goal posts mid way isn't fair, i merely suggested a driver in a tail end car might not be the greatest but stick them in a top car and they can put it on podium or win...Hekki proves this point. Look at Buttons record and watch it go once he gets the Brawn and then the McLaren, but watch as the McLaren becomes a Minardi....

Never said Hekki was a legend, just said pretty much that even he could win in a top car so makes my point, as do you..... now imagine just how dominate the Merc is now and you can see that maybe just maybe Alonso an Button when they were going round out of the top 10 could if they were in the Merc actually be winning.... I know it's hard to imagine but try....

Then try this, Jolyon Palmer started 21st in Mexico, Alonso 11th Button 13th.... Palmer finished 14th behind Alonso 13th and Button 12th on the same lap....... so i'd wager Palmer could get a podium in that Merc...

Edited by tommunster10 on Tuesday 1st November 18:46

Edited by tommunster10 on Tuesday 1st November 18:47

[swisstoni]

What if Palmer could get the Merc on the podium?
What fentastic insight does that lead us to?