Why are McLaren so crap?
Discussion
What exactly went wrong at McLaren?
It's almost 4 years since they won a race.
OK they had some teething problems with the Honda engine, but they've had nearly three years to force Honda to up their game or find another engine supplier.
Is it down to Mercedes and Ferrari being the only real alternatives which are impossible due to conflicts with the road car brand they're trying to build?
Their history of crap performance must be affecting their sponsorship possibilities and the prestige of the road cars.
Couldn't Judd or someone build them an engine?
It's almost 4 years since they won a race.
OK they had some teething problems with the Honda engine, but they've had nearly three years to force Honda to up their game or find another engine supplier.
Is it down to Mercedes and Ferrari being the only real alternatives which are impossible due to conflicts with the road car brand they're trying to build?
Their history of crap performance must be affecting their sponsorship possibilities and the prestige of the road cars.
Couldn't Judd or someone build them an engine?
tommyjj said:
What exactly went wrong at McLaren?
It's almost 4 years since they won a race.
OK they had some teething problems with the Honda engine, but they've had nearly three years to force Honda to up their game or find another engine supplier.
Is it down to Mercedes and Ferrari being the only real alternatives which are impossible due to conflicts with the road car brand they're trying to build?
Their history of crap performance must be affecting their sponsorship possibilities and the prestige of the road cars.
Couldn't Judd or someone build them an engine?
Honda were a year behind the rest of the grid before they even started which is a huge disadvantage.It's almost 4 years since they won a race.
OK they had some teething problems with the Honda engine, but they've had nearly three years to force Honda to up their game or find another engine supplier.
Is it down to Mercedes and Ferrari being the only real alternatives which are impossible due to conflicts with the road car brand they're trying to build?
Their history of crap performance must be affecting their sponsorship possibilities and the prestige of the road cars.
Couldn't Judd or someone build them an engine?
They are making progress but unfortunately for McLaren so are the rest of the field.
If the car does not start having race winning performance in 2017 I would expect Alonso to either move teams or retire from F1.
I really hope McLaren can pull it out of the bag for 2017 but it is looking increasingly unlikely
It's funny the first Honda year all the fanbois said "ah but the car is great, and will win the championship next year" (I used to work with one such t
t!) But of course it ISN'T just the engine. The car isn't that good clearly.
So you have to point at the management and Engineers who design the thing.
So why is that? We know Dennis wont accept failure. Is there a culture of fear of failure? Are the senior people they have simply not of the standard of Allison (who they should be chasing!) or Newey? Are the engineers just employed because they are cheaper than the equivalents at Red Bull? On that note does being in the st hole Woking, mean they can't attract people from Motorsport Valley to relocate?
I mean even though Ferrari are doing their usual self inflicting combustion. They are still there or thereabouts year after year.
t!) But of course it ISN'T just the engine. The car isn't that good clearly.So you have to point at the management and Engineers who design the thing.
So why is that? We know Dennis wont accept failure. Is there a culture of fear of failure? Are the senior people they have simply not of the standard of Allison (who they should be chasing!) or Newey? Are the engineers just employed because they are cheaper than the equivalents at Red Bull? On that note does being in the s
t hole Woking, mean they can't attract people from Motorsport Valley to relocate?I mean even though Ferrari are doing their usual self inflicting combustion. They are still there or thereabouts year after year.
Rich_W said:
On that note does being in the st hole Woking, mean they can't attract people from Motorsport Valley to relocate?.
You clearly have no idea exactly where they are based. They are not in Woking itself but next to New Zealand golf course which is in a very salubrious part of Surrey which is one of the richest counties in England so it's not their location that's caused their current parlous state. t hole Woking, mean they can't attract people from Motorsport Valley to relocate?.i don't see that they will be competitive next year tbh think about it they're roughly 2 seconds off Mercedes who are going to improve next year so supposing merc gain another 1-2 seconds mclaren then have to find 3-4 seconds just to be on the same playing field or 5-6 seconds to dominate and I don't see it at all
McLaren, with all of their experience, managed to fail to be the best Mercedes engined team during 2014, when the playing field (behind Mercedes themselves) was rather more even.
Honda failed to learn "how it was done" when they had access to the secrets of Mercedes during 2014 and ploughed their own furrow, which meant positioning the MGU-H next to the "hot" side of the turbo, when they could surely work out that by separating the two sides of the turbo Mercedes had managed to reduce heat-soak and reduce the pipe runs to the intercoolers, making the intake plumbing shorter, easier to package and more efficient.
Honda may have lost a year of development at the start of the new formula, but they haven't regained it - they're behind all of the other engine manufacturers, and don't have a "qualifying mode". All the while, their engines, in addition to being down on power compared to their opposition, are the least reliable on the grid. This year they have made progress, but they're still way behind on any measure which counts.
Honda failed to learn "how it was done" when they had access to the secrets of Mercedes during 2014 and ploughed their own furrow, which meant positioning the MGU-H next to the "hot" side of the turbo, when they could surely work out that by separating the two sides of the turbo Mercedes had managed to reduce heat-soak and reduce the pipe runs to the intercoolers, making the intake plumbing shorter, easier to package and more efficient.
Honda may have lost a year of development at the start of the new formula, but they haven't regained it - they're behind all of the other engine manufacturers, and don't have a "qualifying mode". All the while, their engines, in addition to being down on power compared to their opposition, are the least reliable on the grid. This year they have made progress, but they're still way behind on any measure which counts.
Dermot O'Logical said:
McLaren, with all of their experience, managed to fail to be the best Mercedes engined team during 2014, when the playing field (behind Mercedes themselves) was rather more even...
... they're behind all of the other engine manufacturers, and don't have a "qualifying mode". All the while, their engines, in addition to being down on power compared to their opposition, are the least reliable on the grid. This year they have made progress, but they're still way behind on any measure which counts.
... they're behind all of the other engine manufacturers, and don't have a "qualifying mode". All the while, their engines, in addition to being down on power compared to their opposition, are the least reliable on the grid. This year they have made progress, but they're still way behind on any measure which counts.
If the last part is correct, how does that account for their quali at Japan compared to Malaysia? I feel the problem is more the car / team now, as you hinted in your first part.
deeen said:
If the last part is correct, how does that account for their quali at Japan compared to Malaysia? I feel the problem is more the car / team now, as you hinted in your first part.
McLaren are simply going through what Merc went through with Schumacher developing a car with experienced drivers. They'll be strong next year, just keeping the powder dry!Smollet said:
You clearly have no idea exactly where they are based. They are not in Woking itself but next to New Zealand golf course which is in a very salubrious part of Surrey which is one of the richest counties in England so it's not their location that's caused their current parlous state.
Two points1. Chap was referring to them being located far enough away from the F1 corridor to hinder recruitment (but they are located in in Woking, I work in Woking (for my sins) and drive past the factory mon-fri)
2. The MTC is a stones throw from their old factory, which is in Sheerwater (Woking), which is, ......a s
t hole.Dr Murdoch said:
Smollet said:
You clearly have no idea exactly where they are based. They are not in Woking itself but next to New Zealand golf course which is in a very salubrious part of Surrey which is one of the richest counties in England so it's not their location that's caused their current parlous state.
Two points1. Chap was referring to them being located far enough away from the F1 corridor to hinder recruitment (but they are located in in Woking, I work in Woking (for my sins) and drive past the factory mon-fri)
2. The MTC is a stones throw from their old factory, which is in Sheerwater (Woking), which is, ......a s
t hole.
I have previously worked in Woking for approximately 4 years all told. Some of my Mums family live in Old Woking. I do know the area.
McLaren MSO is (or was last time I was nearby) still in Sheerwater. (Which as you say is a s
t hole) I think they also have McLaren GT on that same industrial estate.But yes my point is that if you live in Oxfordshire, have kids in schools and are within a half hour commute of several teams. Would you move to Woking with it's Peacock Centre and giant War of the Worlds thingy
With the proviso that Lickety Split IS a top place to get lunch (if a bit London with their pricing)
Dermot O'Logical said:
McLaren, with all of their experience, managed to fail to be the best Mercedes engined team during 2014, when the playing field (behind Mercedes themselves) was rather more even.
Honda failed to learn "how it was done" when they had access to the secrets of Mercedes during 2014 and ploughed their own furrow, which meant positioning the MGU-H next to the "hot" side of the turbo, when they could surely work out that by separating the two sides of the turbo Mercedes had managed to reduce heat-soak and reduce the pipe runs to the intercoolers, making the intake plumbing shorter, easier to package and more efficient.
Honda may have lost a year of development at the start of the new formula, but they haven't regained it - they're behind all of the other engine manufacturers, and don't have a "qualifying mode". All the while, their engines, in addition to being down on power compared to their opposition, are the least reliable on the grid. This year they have made progress, but they're still way behind on any measure which counts.
They tried something different which might have worked, but didn't. Doing the same as others would make it difficult to gain an advantage. The rules have forced them to continue with broadly the design they started out with for the current regs. 2017 allows for a clean sheet design which it has been reported Honda are going for. Let's see if it works. Honda failed to learn "how it was done" when they had access to the secrets of Mercedes during 2014 and ploughed their own furrow, which meant positioning the MGU-H next to the "hot" side of the turbo, when they could surely work out that by separating the two sides of the turbo Mercedes had managed to reduce heat-soak and reduce the pipe runs to the intercoolers, making the intake plumbing shorter, easier to package and more efficient.
Honda may have lost a year of development at the start of the new formula, but they haven't regained it - they're behind all of the other engine manufacturers, and don't have a "qualifying mode". All the while, their engines, in addition to being down on power compared to their opposition, are the least reliable on the grid. This year they have made progress, but they're still way behind on any measure which counts.
Not sure they had access to the secrets of Mercedes during 2014, I suspect Mercedes were very careful in what they allowed McLaren to know. It maybe even led to Honda doing something different to ensure they were not accused of copying, not withstanding what I said above.
Some folk don't know much about F1 history if they are surprised that a once dominant team stops winning.McLaren have been there before with the M 26, for example and the ill fated Peugeot engine . Ferrari have been out of the frame for years on occasion and the same applied to Ligier, Lotus and just about everybody else.The key question is when they will come back- and I think it is a when not an if assuming Apple buy .
coppice said:
Some folk don't know much about F1 history if they are surprised that a once dominant team stops winning.McLaren have been there before with the M 26, for example and the ill fated Peugeot engine . Ferrari have been out of the frame for years on occasion and the same applied to Ligier, Lotus and just about everybody else.The key question is when they will come back- and I think it is a when not an if assuming Apple buy .
A fair point but it is a long, long time since mclaren were 'dominant'. Times have changed.
deeen said:
If the last part is correct, how does that account for their quali at Japan compared to Malaysia? I feel the problem is more the car / team now, as you hinted in your first part.
I think Suzuka just showed up where the ICE is still limiting the car / package somewhat.The Honda ICE is still weak due to the lack of prechamber tech and energy recovery was a low point here which they apparently depend on a lot to compensate.
I was under the impression that Honda was initially asked to package the F1 engine into the smallest package possible for rear aero gains. They went down the route they did, with a small compressor housing packaged in the V, rather than copy the Mercedes route of separating the compressors/impellers with a long shaft. Because of the engine V and the FIA engine rules being set, they are unable to change the size and hence they are not able to make huge gains in both the engine power and the energy recovery from the engine. The McLaren car performance is also hurt by both drivers having to drive the cars to suit the bad fuel economy/use of fuel, which the Honda engine suffers from, often having to save fuel compared to their rivals.
I have also heard that the McLaren chassis is the 3rd best chassis on the grid, when compared to cornering ability.
I have also heard that the McLaren chassis is the 3rd best chassis on the grid, when compared to cornering ability.
Dr Murdoch said:
Smollet said:
You clearly have no idea exactly where they are based. They are not in Woking itself but next to New Zealand golf course which is in a very salubrious part of Surrey which is one of the richest counties in England so it's not their location that's caused their current parlous state.
Two points1. Chap was referring to them being located far enough away from the F1 corridor to hinder recruitment (but they are located in in Woking, I work in Woking (for my sins) and drive past the factory mon-fri)
2. The MTC is a stones throw from their old factory, which is in Sheerwater (Woking), which is, ......a s
t hole.http://www.ilivehere.co.uk/woking-rides-again.html
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