McLaren - Ron Dennis set to leave McLaren F1
Discussion
Vaud said:
VolvoT5 said:
I'm getting a bit irritated with all these f1 insiders and commentators hinting at the 'personal' element to this story but not having the balls to actually elaborate on it.
American iv said:
Joe Saward has a great piece on the split: https://joesaward.wordpress.com/2016/11/16/ron-den...
^^^^^It's here, it's about Bahrain and a question of ethics.
Given it was really Williams that Honda had success with first before dumping them for McLaren......I wonder if they might do a reverse and dump Macca for Williams
It is a shame that Ron's legacy in F1 will ultimately be tainted by this unsavoury ending. Shame, but F1 is a ruthless and unsentimental sport/business.
aeropilot said:
And with the Japanese 'culture', I'd love to be a fly on the wall in Honda's boardroom right now as to their take on all this....and what they will do.
Given it was really Williams that Honda had success with first before dumping them for McLaren......I wonder if they might do a reverse and dump Macca for Williams
It is a shame that Ron's legacy in F1 will ultimately be tainted by this unsavoury ending. Shame, but F1 is a ruthless and unsentimental sport/business.
This just in... Ron elopes with claire and brings honda to williams.... buys alosno out of macca contract... button wins '17 title in renault powered macca.. probably not likely Given it was really Williams that Honda had success with first before dumping them for McLaren......I wonder if they might do a reverse and dump Macca for Williams
It is a shame that Ron's legacy in F1 will ultimately be tainted by this unsavoury ending. Shame, but F1 is a ruthless and unsentimental sport/business.
Yeah though seriously I was wondering about honda, after the utter embarrassment that was their last attempt at F1 (and they must still be licking wounds after all their trying to see the weakened team they left behind rise from the chaos to clinch it before the door had barely smacked them on the ass, & the team go on as merc to totally dominate a couple years later)... that their new entry to F1 with one of the all time great teams should be so lackluster and descend into such farce. history repeating.
hairyben said:
If Ron Dennis starts afresh he'll be not only starting again but has to work to prove his position against his peers, and his resumes most recent additions dont exactly sell him.
Yeah, what's Ron Dennis ever done, eh? There's the road cars of course, that goes without saying I suppose. So apart from the road cars . . . oh! and the racing GTs, I'll give you that. OK, there's that fabulous hybrid. But apart from them . . .
Derek Smith said:
Yeah, what's Ron Dennis ever done, eh?
There's the road cars of course, that goes without saying I suppose. So apart from the road cars . . . oh! and the racing GTs, I'll give you that. OK, there's that fabulous hybrid. But apart from them . . .
Sadly, over the last 20 years, the answer is "Jack sThere's the road cars of course, that goes without saying I suppose. So apart from the road cars . . . oh! and the racing GTs, I'll give you that. OK, there's that fabulous hybrid. But apart from them . . .
t", that is the underlying problem. I admire Ron, but like Bernie, Charlie and even Frank, they are spent forces. Their moment has passed.rdjohn said:
Derek Smith said:
Yeah, what's Ron Dennis ever done, eh?
There's the road cars of course, that goes without saying I suppose. So apart from the road cars . . . oh! and the racing GTs, I'll give you that. OK, there's that fabulous hybrid. But apart from them . . .
Sadly, over the last 20 years, the answer is "Jack sThere's the road cars of course, that goes without saying I suppose. So apart from the road cars . . . oh! and the racing GTs, I'll give you that. OK, there's that fabulous hybrid. But apart from them . . .
t", that is the underlying problem. I admire Ron, but like Bernie, Charlie and even Frank, they are spent forces. Their moment has passed.My reply was to someone suggesting that RD has done little over the last 20 years. Yet McL has a range of tempting supercars. And you suggest, in colourful language, that this is nothing?
He's done more in the last 20 years than the vast majority of us manage in our lifetimes. The chap is legend. If anyone wants to dismiss his tremendous achievements, they'd better have done more.
RD started with a spanner in his hand. Like Frank Williams? That is one low level criticism.
Derek Smith said:
rdjohn said:
Derek Smith said:
Yeah, what's Ron Dennis ever done, eh?
There's the road cars of course, that goes without saying I suppose. So apart from the road cars . . . oh! and the racing GTs, I'll give you that. OK, there's that fabulous hybrid. But apart from them . . .
Sadly, over the last 20 years, the answer is "Jack sThere's the road cars of course, that goes without saying I suppose. So apart from the road cars . . . oh! and the racing GTs, I'll give you that. OK, there's that fabulous hybrid. But apart from them . . .
t", that is the underlying problem. I admire Ron, but like Bernie, Charlie and even Frank, they are spent forces. Their moment has passed.My reply was to someone suggesting that RD has done little over the last 20 years. Yet McL has a range of tempting supercars. And you suggest, in colourful language, that this is nothing?
He's done more in the last 20 years than the vast majority of us manage in our lifetimes. The chap is legend. If anyone wants to dismiss his tremendous achievements, they'd better have done more.
RD started with a spanner in his hand. Like Frank Williams? That is one low level criticism.
But in the spirit of proving RonMaccaP4's worth, I'd love to know, since RD took control of McLaren International, if you added up all of Mercedes', Red Bull's, Ferrari's, Renault's and Williams' constructors championships just where McLaren International stood in the list, even including past iterations of each team.
LaurasOtherHalf said:
You've done better than I Derek, you dignified it with an answer
But in the spirit of proving RonMaccaP4's worth, I'd love to know, since RD took control of McLaren International, if you added up all of Mercedes', Red Bull's, Ferrari's, Renault's and Williams' constructors championships just where McLaren International stood in the list, even including past iterations of each team.
Third in the table, under some Italian team and Williams. If you include the fraudulently taken WCC, then it is joint second. But in the spirit of proving RonMaccaP4's worth, I'd love to know, since RD took control of McLaren International, if you added up all of Mercedes', Red Bull's, Ferrari's, Renault's and Williams' constructors championships just where McLaren International stood in the list, even including past iterations of each team.
A more telling stat, I think, is the years the team ran under the one CEO. RD is McLaren in the same way Frank is Williams. Enzo was Ferrari, but now it's a johnny come lately.
A mate emailed me today - I've been working on my desktop, reverting to an earlier version of Win10 - and we had a little chat about memories of McL. I said: 'We are talking as if it is dead.' He said: 'It is as far as I'm concerned.'
Frank in hospital. It feels like the end of an era.
Williams has been handed over in family so I think my next team picks itself.
I've got a lawyering friend. Very shrewd and an F1 fan, so I forgive her her job. We became friends over Stepneygate. She was newish to the sport and was bemused by the course it took. I told her about burn-the-pits-down-gate and other nefarious F1 occurrences and she did a lot of reading. When I sent her Whitmarsh's reply to the punishment by Mosley she said the letter was one of the bravest replies to a discipline case she'd seen, and in her job she'd seen a few. She said it had been written by lawyers, but they'd been under instruction. She said it was a classic of its kind, rejecting the findings in a manner that conformed to requirements but only barely.
Derek Smith said:
Third in the table, under some Italian team and Williams. If you include the fraudulently taken WCC, then it is joint second.
A more telling stat, I think, is the years the team ran under the one CEO. RD is McLaren in the same way Frank is Williams. Enzo was Ferrari, but now it's a johnny come lately.
A mate emailed me today - I've been working on my desktop, reverting to an earlier version of Win10 - and we had a little chat about memories of McL. I said: 'We are talking as if it is dead.' He said: 'It is as far as I'm concerned.'
Frank in hospital. It feels like the end of an era.
Williams has been handed over in family so I think my next team picks itself.
I've got a lawyering friend. Very shrewd and an F1 fan, so I forgive her her job. We became friends over Stepneygate. She was newish to the sport and was bemused by the course it took. I told her about burn-the-pits-down-gate and other nefarious F1 occurrences and she did a lot of reading. When I sent her Whitmarsh's reply to the punishment by Mosley she said the letter was one of the bravest replies to a discipline case she'd seen, and in her job she'd seen a few. She said it had been written by lawyers, but they'd been under instruction. She said it was a classic of its kind, rejecting the findings in a manner that conformed to requirements but only barely.
I think the way to look at it is Ron, wasnt enzo or Bernie, he was Ron Dennis, and in that you pay the bigget tribute to the guy. (think someone said that earlier and its bang on)A more telling stat, I think, is the years the team ran under the one CEO. RD is McLaren in the same way Frank is Williams. Enzo was Ferrari, but now it's a johnny come lately.
A mate emailed me today - I've been working on my desktop, reverting to an earlier version of Win10 - and we had a little chat about memories of McL. I said: 'We are talking as if it is dead.' He said: 'It is as far as I'm concerned.'
Frank in hospital. It feels like the end of an era.
Williams has been handed over in family so I think my next team picks itself.
I've got a lawyering friend. Very shrewd and an F1 fan, so I forgive her her job. We became friends over Stepneygate. She was newish to the sport and was bemused by the course it took. I told her about burn-the-pits-down-gate and other nefarious F1 occurrences and she did a lot of reading. When I sent her Whitmarsh's reply to the punishment by Mosley she said the letter was one of the bravest replies to a discipline case she'd seen, and in her job she'd seen a few. She said it had been written by lawyers, but they'd been under instruction. She said it was a classic of its kind, rejecting the findings in a manner that conformed to requirements but only barely.
But the hard face is recent performance with the resources Mclaren have, have been poor. Yes they were trying to turn it around but the fact is Mclaren maybe now have the 4th biggest budget in F1, behind Merc, red bull and Ferrari. It was telling they didnt build a prototype car for Pirerlli tyre testing, the others did.
I'll say it again, and i fully understand why Ron did it, not taking that new title sponsor at a lower rate a few years back was a mistake and one that lives on with the team today. Fall outs over bahrian GP etc, the other shareholders will have been alarmed that a replacement hasnt been found and other sponsors have left.
Despite Mclaren claims of the 2nd best chassis in F1 it clearly isnt, maybe not even in the top 5.
I would guess, and it is sad, they felt Ron had 2-3 years to rebuild and simply put the results havent been good enough. He has had 2-3 years to find money to buy them out, he sadly didnt.
Sad to say in the modern world, credit from previous glory or acheivements is soon forgotten.
So what now for Mclaren, well the change in regs will give them a chance to catch up with Mercedes. Usual rumours (like there were before this season) that honda have found big gains, Mclaren are building a rocket ship etc. We wont know until March. I would wager there will be a title sponsor in place for 2018 season at a reduced rate assuming its too late to find one for next year.
Edited by revrange on Friday 18th November 08:42
revrange said:
Derek Smith said:
Third in the table, under some Italian team and Williams. If you include the fraudulently taken WCC, then it is joint second.
A more telling stat, I think, is the years the team ran under the one CEO. RD is McLaren in the same way Frank is Williams. Enzo was Ferrari, but now it's a johnny come lately.
A mate emailed me today - I've been working on my desktop, reverting to an earlier version of Win10 - and we had a little chat about memories of McL. I said: 'We are talking as if it is dead.' He said: 'It is as far as I'm concerned.'
Frank in hospital. It feels like the end of an era.
Williams has been handed over in family so I think my next team picks itself.
I've got a lawyering friend. Very shrewd and an F1 fan, so I forgive her her job. We became friends over Stepneygate. She was newish to the sport and was bemused by the course it took. I told her about burn-the-pits-down-gate and other nefarious F1 occurrences and she did a lot of reading. When I sent her Whitmarsh's reply to the punishment by Mosley she said the letter was one of the bravest replies to a discipline case she'd seen, and in her job she'd seen a few. She said it had been written by lawyers, but they'd been under instruction. She said it was a classic of its kind, rejecting the findings in a manner that conformed to requirements but only barely.
I think the way to look at it is Ron, wasnt enzo or Bernie, he was Ron Dennis, and in that you pay the bigget tribute to the guy. (think someone said that earlier and its bang on)A more telling stat, I think, is the years the team ran under the one CEO. RD is McLaren in the same way Frank is Williams. Enzo was Ferrari, but now it's a johnny come lately.
A mate emailed me today - I've been working on my desktop, reverting to an earlier version of Win10 - and we had a little chat about memories of McL. I said: 'We are talking as if it is dead.' He said: 'It is as far as I'm concerned.'
Frank in hospital. It feels like the end of an era.
Williams has been handed over in family so I think my next team picks itself.
I've got a lawyering friend. Very shrewd and an F1 fan, so I forgive her her job. We became friends over Stepneygate. She was newish to the sport and was bemused by the course it took. I told her about burn-the-pits-down-gate and other nefarious F1 occurrences and she did a lot of reading. When I sent her Whitmarsh's reply to the punishment by Mosley she said the letter was one of the bravest replies to a discipline case she'd seen, and in her job she'd seen a few. She said it had been written by lawyers, but they'd been under instruction. She said it was a classic of its kind, rejecting the findings in a manner that conformed to requirements but only barely.
But the hard face is recent performance with the resources Mclaren have, have been poor. Yes they were trying to turn it around but the fact is Mclaren maybe now have the 4th biggest budget in F1, behind Merc, red bull and Ferrari. It was telling they didnt build a prototype car for Pirerlli tyre testing, the others did.
I'll say it again, and i fully understand why Ron did it, not taking that new title sponsor at a lower rate a few years back was a mistake and one that lives on with the team today. Fall outs over bahrian GP etc, the other shareholders will have been alarmed that a replacement hasnt been found and other sponsors have left.
Despite Mclaren claims of the 2nd best chassis in F1 it clearly isnt, maybe not even in the top 5.
I would guess, and it is sad, they felt Ron had 2-3 years to rebuild and simply put the results havent been good enough. He has had 2-3 years to find money to buy them out, he sadly didnt.
Sad to say in the modern world, credit from previous glory or acheivements is soon forgotten.
So what now for Mclaren, well the change in regs will give them a chance to catch up with Mercedes. Usual rumours (like there were before this season) that honda have found big gains, Mclaren are building a rocket ship etc. We wont know until March. I would wager there will be a title sponsor in place for 2018 season at a reduced rate assuming its too late to find one for next year.
Edited by revrange on Friday 18th November 08:42
Peter Windsor on it:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=a5Zhw5lK6dc
I was looking for his view of the Brazilian GP.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=a5Zhw5lK6dc
I was looking for his view of the Brazilian GP.
I follow a few F1 and racing blogs. They all say, suggest or hint at the same thing and then fail to explain in shallow, let alone depth.
It is suggested that the whole debacle is personal. Anyone able to explain in more depth?
If inappropriate to post, then a PM would be gratefully received and I won't do anything with it.
It is suggested that the whole debacle is personal. Anyone able to explain in more depth?
If inappropriate to post, then a PM would be gratefully received and I won't do anything with it.
Derek Smith said:
I follow a few F1 and racing blogs. They all say, suggest or hint at the same thing and then fail to explain in shallow, let alone depth.
It is suggested that the whole debacle is personal. Anyone able to explain in more depth?
If inappropriate to post, then a PM would be gratefully received and I won't do anything with it.
I see no reason to dispute Joe Saward's view - that it was a personal ethics clash re: Bahrain.It is suggested that the whole debacle is personal. Anyone able to explain in more depth?
If inappropriate to post, then a PM would be gratefully received and I won't do anything with it.
Derek Smith said:
I follow a few F1 and racing blogs. They all say, suggest or hint at the same thing and then fail to explain in shallow, let alone depth.
It is suggested that the whole debacle is personal. Anyone able to explain in more depth?
If inappropriate to post, then a PM would be gratefully received and I won't do anything with it.
I'll have a crack at it, although I know none of them so this is cobbled together.It is suggested that the whole debacle is personal. Anyone able to explain in more depth?
If inappropriate to post, then a PM would be gratefully received and I won't do anything with it.
When you read "Mansour Ojjeh", you can also fold into that "TaG". He got into F1 as a sponsor with Williams in the late 70's.
Ron and Lisa Dennis were close with Mansour and Kathy Ojjeh for years.
Ron and Mansour went into parnership at McLaren in 1984, although Mansour had funded the porsche/TaG engines for the team from 1982.
As I understand it, Lisa was actually quite key in keeping Ron and Mansour's friendship alive through the 90's and early 00's.
Ron and Lisa got into difficulty - the rumour is that Lisa wanted to start taking things more easy in life, and Ron didn't want to.
Ron and Lisa announced that they split up in February 2008. It wasn't amicable, and Mansour+Kathy Ojjeh sided with Lisa.
The following year, Brawn won the championship, Ron got embroiled in Spygate and stepped back from the F1 team.
Ron has since come back to the F1 team, as it's important to him to be involved.
The theory is that Mansour/Kathy/Lisa want to hurt him, so have taken over the board with the help of the other shareholder, and ousted him.
This is not to do with Ron's performance, it's hurtful on a personal level.
According to folk like Joe Saward there's a lot more to this story ($100m fine etc, relating back to 2009) but nobody has published exactly what happened there, and likely the story won't be written properly until everyone's gone or writing their autobiographies. Joe himself has the morals not to get into writing it for his own profit.
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