McLaren - Ron Dennis set to leave McLaren F1
Discussion
American iv said:
Joe Saward has a great piece on the split: https://joesaward.wordpress.com/2016/11/16/ron-den...
Thanks for that. I liked the reference to Billingsgate in one of Sawards replies underneath.Derek Smith said:
I follow a few F1 and racing blogs. They all say, suggest or hint at the same thing and then fail to explain in shallow, let alone depth.
It is suggested that the whole debacle is personal. Anyone able to explain in more depth?
If inappropriate to post, then a PM would be gratefully received and I won't do anything with it.
I get the impression that some people think that the cause of the falling out between Dennis and Ojjeh may be connected with Ron's divorce which implies the usual tittle-tattle. I have no idea and it is none of my business anyway.It is suggested that the whole debacle is personal. Anyone able to explain in more depth?
If inappropriate to post, then a PM would be gratefully received and I won't do anything with it.
However, I don't think that Ron's removal is due personal reasons. I think that the other shareholders have said "enough" and that change is necessary to turn things around. There is a danger that McLaren are slipping into no-man's land where they don't have the income from either sponsorship or prize money (more on that in a minute) to move the team back to the front of the grid.
I think that McLaren are facing a dramatic drop in their share of FOM prize money in future years. We know that Bernie cut off the threat of a breakaway a few years ago through by offering Ferrari and Red Bull sweetheart deals. It is common knowledge that McLaren did not get a similar deal. I suspect that Bernie did his usual divide-and-conquer approach. Having signed up Ferrari and Red Bull he then told Williams and McLaren that he only needed one of them so he was only offering one more bonus payment and Williams blinked first. The only additional payment McLaren gets is the Constructors Championship Bonus. However, Williams do not receive this and McLaren's last WCC was in 98, 1 year after Williams's last. It is possible that McLaren are no longer going to receive this bonus payment. With Mercedes now receiving additional payments as a result of winning back to back titles McLaren could be facing a major drop in revenue and find themselves stuck with similar payments as Force India, Renault, Toro Rosso and Sauber which could condemn them to the midfield indefintely.
CraigyMc said:
I'll have a crack at it, although I know none of them so this is cobbled together.
When you read "Mansour Ojjeh", you can also fold into that "TaG". He got into F1 as a sponsor with Williams in the late 70's.
Ron and Lisa Dennis were close with Mansour and Kathy Ojjeh for years.
Ron and Mansour went into parnership at McLaren in 1984, although Mansour had funded the porsche/TaG engines for the team from 1982.
As I understand it, Lisa was actually quite key in keeping Ron and Mansour's friendship alive through the 90's and early 00's.
Ron and Lisa got into difficulty - the rumour is that Lisa wanted to start taking things more easy in life, and Ron didn't want to.
Ron and Lisa announced that they split up in February 2008. It wasn't amicable, and Mansour+Kathy Ojjeh sided with Lisa.
The following year, Brawn won the championship, Ron got embroiled in Spygate and stepped back from the F1 team.
Ron has since come back to the F1 team, as it's important to him to be involved.
The theory is that Mansour/Kathy/Lisa want to hurt him, so have taken over the board with the help of the other shareholder, and ousted him.
This is not to do with Ron's performance, it's hurtful on a personal level.
According to folk like Joe Saward there's a lot more to this story ($100m fine etc, relating back to 2009) but nobody has published exactly what happened there, and likely the story won't be written properly until everyone's gone or writing their autobiographies. Joe himself has the morals not to get into writing it for his own profit.
I heard a suggestion as to the fine from someone who was close to the action, but even he stopped short of explaining it all away. This too, I am told, was personal. When you read "Mansour Ojjeh", you can also fold into that "TaG". He got into F1 as a sponsor with Williams in the late 70's.
Ron and Lisa Dennis were close with Mansour and Kathy Ojjeh for years.
Ron and Mansour went into parnership at McLaren in 1984, although Mansour had funded the porsche/TaG engines for the team from 1982.
As I understand it, Lisa was actually quite key in keeping Ron and Mansour's friendship alive through the 90's and early 00's.
Ron and Lisa got into difficulty - the rumour is that Lisa wanted to start taking things more easy in life, and Ron didn't want to.
Ron and Lisa announced that they split up in February 2008. It wasn't amicable, and Mansour+Kathy Ojjeh sided with Lisa.
The following year, Brawn won the championship, Ron got embroiled in Spygate and stepped back from the F1 team.
Ron has since come back to the F1 team, as it's important to him to be involved.
The theory is that Mansour/Kathy/Lisa want to hurt him, so have taken over the board with the help of the other shareholder, and ousted him.
This is not to do with Ron's performance, it's hurtful on a personal level.
According to folk like Joe Saward there's a lot more to this story ($100m fine etc, relating back to 2009) but nobody has published exactly what happened there, and likely the story won't be written properly until everyone's gone or writing their autobiographies. Joe himself has the morals not to get into writing it for his own profit.
Thanks for the info on what personal means. Nasty if true.
I don't think Spygate is an accurate title for the debacle. There was no spying as such. It was just two employees taking advantage of the trust that was implicit in their role and at the cost of their employers. Nasty and true.
But the truth will not come out until the threat of litigation is removed. I was reading a book on publishing ethics and it said, quite clearly, that it doesn't matter whether you are right or wrong, it doesn't even matter if you have ample proof of your stance, if the other person has the money to sue you, you don't publish.
ralphrj said:
With Mercedes now receiving additional payments as a result of winning back to back titles McLaren could be facing a major drop in revenue and find themselves stuck with similar payments as Force India, Renault, Toro Rosso and Sauber which could condemn them to the midfield indefintely.
McLaren have a bonus for being one of the four established teams - this is called the CCB (constructors championship bonus). For 2016 it's worth $32m to McLaren.It's separate from the Column1 and Column2 money related to performance in any given season.
In terms of cost base, FI, Toro Rosso and Sauber all have to pay for engines; McLaren doesn't.
Renault is a manufacturer so has its own engines, but seems to have constricted (if stable) funding (Renault have decided to dripfeed it in over multiple years).
The lack of a title sponsor is pretty unhelpful, but McLaren have not had an awful time with sponsors. Tag left for Redbull, which they replaced with Chandon (Tag and Chandon are both brands of the same holding company - LVMH - and the Chandon deal is for more money so that was an upgrade). Exxon are leaving but being replaced with BP for next year - financials on that one are TBD.
I think its very sad, I was a friend of the much missed Creighton Brown, he was a very effective buffer between RD and the rest of the Woking world. You have to remember that RD is a a detail obsessed OCD person par excellance. He is very easy to fall out with and certainly believes that the business needs to be run by a comittee of one. He needs someone to temper his natural response to tell it like it is.
There are quite a few examples of prime movers behind large companies eventually being left behind. Look at the founder of Sage, he activly brought people in to essentially be his boss, OK he was always aware of who held the voting stock but sad as it is Ron has had his day.
I wouldn't be suprised if he did something with Gordon Murray.......not F1 but maybe something on the road car side. RD knows brands and also knows that Murray as a brand has more credibility than the Ron GT would; I think watch this space
There are quite a few examples of prime movers behind large companies eventually being left behind. Look at the founder of Sage, he activly brought people in to essentially be his boss, OK he was always aware of who held the voting stock but sad as it is Ron has had his day.
I wouldn't be suprised if he did something with Gordon Murray.......not F1 but maybe something on the road car side. RD knows brands and also knows that Murray as a brand has more credibility than the Ron GT would; I think watch this space
Rangeroverover said:
I think its very sad, I was a friend of the much missed Creighton Brown, he was a very effective buffer between RD and the rest of the Woking world. You have to remember that RD is a a detail obsessed OCD person par excellance. He is very easy to fall out with and certainly believes that the business needs to be run by a comittee of one. He needs someone to temper his natural response to tell it like it is.
Which is why I always found it odd that he was ever willing to accept owing a mere 25% share, and not retain a min 51% stake like Sir Frank did.It will be interesting to see what he will do now.
I have a feeling we won't ever see him at a F1 track/paddock again (unless Liberty come knocking on his door - which I can't see happening, but might be a 'fun' idea - LOL!)
aeropilot said:
Which is why I always found it odd that he was ever willing to accept owing a mere 25% share, and not retain a min 51% stake like Sir Frank did.
It's historic. He owned McLaren International in 1980 but needed to cede some shareholding in order to fund the team properly - so he went 50/50 with Ojjeh in 1983 and hasn't had the majority since.The current 25/25/50 thing is a result of Daimler selling up and Mumtalakat becoming involved.
Ron's real problem is falling out with Ojjeh in the first place.
CraigyMc said:
aeropilot said:
Which is why I always found it odd that he was ever willing to accept owing a mere 25% share, and not retain a min 51% stake like Sir Frank did.
It's historic. He owned McLaren International in 1980 but needed to cede some shareholding in order to fund the team properly - so he went 50/50 with Ojjeh in 1983 and hasn't had the majority since.The current 25/25/50 thing is a result of Daimler selling up and Mumtalakat becoming involved.
Ron's real problem is falling out with Ojjeh in the first place.
As you say, the falling out with Ojjeh for whatever reason that we might never know, or combination of reasons is why he is where is now is.
Rangeroverover said:
I wouldn't be suprised if he did something with Gordon Murray.......not F1 but maybe something on the road car side. RD knows brands and also knows that Murray as a brand has more credibility than the Ron GT would; I think watch this space
I'd be willing to bet my life on this not happening. aeropilot said:
As you say, the falling out with Ojjeh for whatever reason that we might never know, or combination of reasons is why he is where is now is.
Didn't Craig just answer that question? Not that I'd know...but it all seems to make sense. Other than Lisa wanting to 'hurt' Ron, but what would I know?rubystone said:
Rangeroverover said:
I wouldn't be suprised if he did something with Gordon Murray.......not F1 but maybe something on the road car side. RD knows brands and also knows that Murray as a brand has more credibility than the Ron GT would; I think watch this space
I'd be willing to bet my life on this not happening. aeropilot said:
It is a shame that Ron's legacy in F1 will ultimately be tainted by this unsavoury ending. Shame, but F1 is a ruthless and unsentimental sport/business.
"all great political careers end in failure"Derek Smith said:
rdjohn said:
Derek Smith said:
Yeah, what's Ron Dennis ever done, eh?
There's the road cars of course, that goes without saying I suppose. So apart from the road cars . . . oh! and the racing GTs, I'll give you that. OK, there's that fabulous hybrid. But apart from them . . .
Sadly, over the last 20 years, the answer is "Jack sThere's the road cars of course, that goes without saying I suppose. So apart from the road cars . . . oh! and the racing GTs, I'll give you that. OK, there's that fabulous hybrid. But apart from them . . .
t", that is the underlying problem. I admire Ron, but like Bernie, Charlie and even Frank, they are spent forces. Their moment has passed.My reply was to someone suggesting that RD has done little over the last 20 years. Yet McL has a range of tempting supercars. And you suggest, in colourful language, that this is nothing?
He's done more in the last 20 years than the vast majority of us manage in our lifetimes. The chap is legend. If anyone wants to dismiss his tremendous achievements, they'd better have done more.
RD started with a spanner in his hand. Like Frank Williams? That is one low level criticism.
Been more in the loop of what the engineering department were up to etcSadly 8 years in F1 IS an eternity. But the issue is not that they haven't won since, it's that they haven't looked like they could mount a serious title assault.
Why did Dennis fall out with Gordon Murray?
Rich_W said:
He wasn't responsible, I don't believe he would have sanctioned it. But spurious it is not. I wonder if going back he would have handled it any differently? Not told Max, Shredded everything! Been more in the loop of what the engineering department were up to etc
Sadly 8 years in F1 IS an eternity. But the issue is not that they haven't won since, it's that they haven't looked like they could mount a serious title assault.
Why did Dennis fall out with Gordon Murray?
Perhaps he smelt a trap. FA says that info of set up is available, leaves and then comes back and says he's sorry and didn't mean it. I can't see that RD could do anything else, and, unfortunately, I've got a certain experience with discipline situations. The problem was that there was nothing to shred, Mosley proved that. Completely and utterly. FA tried Ferrari set-up information and it was found useless. The only other person guilty was Pdl Rosa, and the bloke running the simulation. So Mosley, with a genius for such matters, gives absolution to the two drivers, then threatens Hamilton, who wasn't involved in the cheating, and fined RD. Been more in the loop of what the engineering department were up to etcSadly 8 years in F1 IS an eternity. But the issue is not that they haven't won since, it's that they haven't looked like they could mount a serious title assault.
Why did Dennis fall out with Gordon Murray?
Try and burn down the pits and get admonished. Have your senior engineer action with the senior engineer in Ferrari, both swapping data, and both teams are dealt with equally. Almost.
Almost here meaning nothing like it.
Interestingly, Alonso was saved by Ron. Others wanted to fire him on the spot rather than part company at the end of the season. But I'm told that it is absolutely true that Ron, as soon as he heard about the affair, picked up the phone and rang Max. Max told him not to worry...the rest, as they say, is history.
Could it have been Apple that Ron was in talks with to raise some cash for a buy out?
http://forums.macrumors.com/threads/mclaren-confir...
It was rumoured before, but this is confirmation that there were meetings..
http://forums.macrumors.com/threads/mclaren-confir...
It was rumoured before, but this is confirmation that there were meetings..
rubystone said:
Interestingly, Alonso was saved by Ron. Others wanted to fire him on the spot rather than part company at the end of the season. But I'm told that it is absolutely true that Ron, as soon as he heard about the affair, picked up the phone and rang Max. Max told him not to worry...the rest, as they say, is history.
I've read the unredacted report of the inquiry, but then so has everyone who downloaded it, and it says that there was nothing found to implicate Dennis, nothing found to suggest anything was deleted, and the only thing that seemed similar to Ferrari was the brakes, which might have been sourced through the errant team member.A little bit of history.
The phone call, according to Ron:
"He [the evil one] said that I [Ron Dennis] should do nothing. I started to calm down. Then, prior to the race, Fernando's manager came and said that he had lost his temper and completely retracted everything he said. When I phoned Max, Max was understanding and said things to me that are irrelevant here, though I would be more than comfortable sharing them.
"He was completely understanding and said that, on the basis of what I told him, if he felt there was any real validity in what Fernando had said, he would contact me prior to taking any action.
". . . the matter ended there, until 26 days later, when the drivers received a letter."
History, eh? Boring or what?
Derek Smith said:
I've read the unredacted report of the inquiry, but then so has everyone who downloaded it, and it says that there was nothing found to implicate Dennis, nothing found to suggest anything was deleted, and the only thing that seemed similar to Ferrari was the brakes, which might have been sourced through the errant team member.
A little bit of history.
The phone call, according to Ron:
"He [the evil one] said that I [Ron Dennis] should do nothing. I started to calm down. Then, prior to the race, Fernando's manager came and said that he had lost his temper and completely retracted everything he said. When I phoned Max, Max was understanding and said things to me that are irrelevant here, though I would be more than comfortable sharing them.
"He was completely understanding and said that, on the basis of what I told him, if he felt there was any real validity in what Fernando had said, he would contact me prior to taking any action.
". . . the matter ended there, until 26 days later, when the drivers received a letter."
History, eh? Boring or what?
More then one other team saw the info too. Whether or not they used it...well who can say?....they of course, escaped censure. A little bit of history.
The phone call, according to Ron:
"He [the evil one] said that I [Ron Dennis] should do nothing. I started to calm down. Then, prior to the race, Fernando's manager came and said that he had lost his temper and completely retracted everything he said. When I phoned Max, Max was understanding and said things to me that are irrelevant here, though I would be more than comfortable sharing them.
"He was completely understanding and said that, on the basis of what I told him, if he felt there was any real validity in what Fernando had said, he would contact me prior to taking any action.
". . . the matter ended there, until 26 days later, when the drivers received a letter."
History, eh? Boring or what?
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