McLaren - Ron Dennis set to leave McLaren F1

[anonymous-user]

Lots of rose tinted glasses in this thread.

Prior to Gordon Murray joining McLaren International, the place was a shambles. They had good designs but woeful reliability and no systems in place to cover things like component life control. So the designers were doing a good job and building a fast car, but the factory and infrastructure wasn't up to the task of capitalising on that situation and neither was the team at the track.

Just look at the number of failures in the races prior to 1987, its an appalling record.

It was Gordon Murray and Steve Nichols who sorted out the engineering at McLaren and put them in a place where they would go forward and dominate. Ron's job was to get the money in.

[The Hypno-Toad]

jsf said:

Lots of rose tinted glasses in this thread.

Prior to Gordon Murray joining McLaren International, the place was a shambles.

Winning 12 races out of 16 in 1984. World Drivers Championship and Constructors Champions.

1985 World Drivers Championship and Constructors Champions.

1986 World Drivers Championship and 2nd in the Constructors Championship.

Yep, clearly the place was a total disaster zone.

[TheOversteerLever]

Wonder if he watched the launch?

[amokwa]

CraigyMc said:

I dunno what I said to annoy you.

Ron was successful before he was in F1 as a team owner, already wealthy with his F2 business and other racing interests.
Nobody can say what he'd be worth without Bernie's impact on all of F1 and the fortunes of all the team owners.
Poorer, probably.

Bernie got into F1 as an owner with Brabham about 1971. That's around the same time Ron left Brabham (where he was a mechanic under Ron Taunerac) and got the Rondel racing F1 team going.

Ron wasn't just obsessive about neatness.
It was under him that McLaren did the first F1 composite car (John Barnard) - which was also the first McLaren car under Ron.
That was 1981, before Bernie started making the TV-money machine spew dosh all over the place.

Ron's team (the Dennis-era McLaren as opposed to the prior Bruce McLaren-era to 1970 or Teddy Mayer-era) took professionalism in the sport to a higher level than had been seen before.

The only leap forward remotely comparable in were the 30's German Grand Prix teams, in terms of detail, engineering etc. McLaren set the benchmark, and now it's impossible to run a team without having that type of detail-obsessive focus.

I'm not denigrating Bernie, he did a lot for the sport. So did Ron.

Thanks for the history lesson, have always admired the McLaren methodology.

[Derek Smith]

I feel sorry for Dennis. He should have gone with applause, and the gratitude of spectators, for what he did over so many years.

He's left with a fair bit of money, and, more importantly, some brilliant memories. A giant of the sport.

[LaurasOtherHalf]

jsf said:

Lots of rose tinted glasses in this thread.

Prior to Gordon Murray joining McLaren International, the place was a shambles. They had good designs but woeful reliability and no systems in place to cover things like component life control. So the designers were doing a good job and building a fast car, but the factory and infrastructure wasn't up to the task of capitalising on that situation and neither was the team at the track.

Just look at the number of failures in the races prior to 1987, its an appalling record.

It was Gordon Murray and Steve Nichols who sorted out the engineering at McLaren and put them in a place where they would go forward and dominate. Ron's job was to get the money in.

I don't think this is correct at all!

[isaldiri]

The comment about rose tinted glasses is not unfair though. RD achieved a huge amount before (as pointed out) but there's no doubt that of late Mclaren have lost their way and RD booting out Whitmarsh has not changed that at all. If anything it's been worse. He stayed too long imo. It's possible of course the replacement will be worse yet but a change was needed I think.

[Leithen]

Derek Smith said:

I feel sorry for Dennis. He should have gone with applause, and the gratitude of spectators, for what he did over so many years.

He's left with a fair bit of money, and, more importantly, some brilliant memories. A giant of the sport.

IIRC he has retained his shareholding in both the Technology Group and Automotive. Or has he subsequently sold them?

[anonymous-user]

The Hypno-Toad said:

jsf said:

Lots of rose tinted glasses in this thread.

Prior to Gordon Murray joining McLaren International, the place was a shambles.

Winning 12 races out of 16 in 1984. World Drivers Championship and Constructors Champions.

1985 World Drivers Championship and Constructors Champions.

1986 World Drivers Championship and 2nd in the Constructors Championship.

Yep, clearly the place was a total disaster zone.

1984 16 races, 11 retirements
1985 16 races, 14 retirements, 1 disqualification, 1 did not start
1986 16 races, 10 retirements, 1 disqualification
1987 16 races, 9 retirements
1988 16 races, 3 retirements, 1 disqualification

Speak to Gordon and Steve and they will tell you what they walked into, it wasn't what you would expect based on the image. The systems required simply were not there.

As I said, they had good engineers and drivers and a good basic car, but the foundation for the future domination needed to be put in place, Gordon and Steve sorted that out.

[Derek Smith]

jsf said:

The Hypno-Toad said:

jsf said:

Lots of rose tinted glasses in this thread.

Prior to Gordon Murray joining McLaren International, the place was a shambles.

Winning 12 races out of 16 in 1984. World Drivers Championship and Constructors Champions.

1985 World Drivers Championship and Constructors Champions.

1986 World Drivers Championship and 2nd in the Constructors Championship.

Yep, clearly the place was a total disaster zone.

1984 16 races, 11 retirements
1985 16 races, 14 retirements, 1 disqualification, 1 did not start
1986 16 races, 10 retirements, 1 disqualification
1987 16 races, 9 retirements
1988 16 races, 3 retirements, 1 disqualification

Speak to Gordon and Steve and they will tell you what they walked into, it wasn't what you would expect based on the image. The systems required simply were not there.

As I said, they had good engineers and drivers and a good basic car, but the foundation for the future domination needed to be put in place, Gordon and Steve sorted that out.

There's only one way to judge a team, and that's on whether they reached their targets. McL were after the WDC and WCC. They needed to do no more than beat those at the level they were competing. McL wanted the top slot. They got it with three WDCs and two WCCs. Judged against other new teams entering F1, this was a tremendous success. No team would be able to manage that nowadays, although I accept there are many more hurdles to overcome en route.

I started supporting McL at the start of MP4 and it seemed the only team anywhere near them for professionalism was Williams.

The only thing you can proved with bare stats is that you can't prove anything with them. The ones you quoted need to be measured against those of other teams as they were the ones that McL had to compete with. There was more or less continual improvement. 87 was a transitional year and Dennis spent wisely to pull in people to improve his team. He new what was needed and got it.

In 1988, the greatest McL season ever, the retirement you quoted was Senna being rammed by Schlesser. McL dominated the season. Whilst one can suggest it was down to the designer, the drivers, the aero, what is without doubt is that the bloke in charge, Dennis, had been working towards that level of competitiveness since the MP4/1.

Great times.

I think '88 was one of the most exciting seasons ever, with the battle between two drivers who seemed, perhaps I imagined it, not the best of friends, in equal cars.

Great memories.

Whilst that level of success hasn't been maintained, no other team has managed to either. Williams were in the doldrums for years. Ferrari needed a revolution to succeed and now are back at the level McL were when it received much criticism. Further, it was almost as if the management of F1 wanted to destroy McL with the £100,000,000 fine that the team managed to come through.

McLaren are no more. There's another team in its place this season, albeit with the same name. I think history will judge McL kindly. On standings alone - that's not statistics, it's results - they are up there with a few other greats.

[stuttgartmetal]

Ken Tyrell
Who ?

[Derek Smith]

stuttgartmetal said:

Ken Tyrell
Who ?

Are you suggesting that F1 fans don't know of KT? At Silverstone Classic a couple of years ago there was a crowd around on of his cars with people talking of the great days with Stewart.

[stuttgartmetal]

Ask someone under 25, Derek.

[hairyben]

Derek Smith said:

I feel sorry for Dennis. He should have gone with applause, and the gratitude of spectators, for what he did over so many years.

True, at least respect and acknowledgement and on his own terms. Thank the vile creature moseley for that cant we. Although dennis probably could have handled things better.

[anonymous-user]

Derek Smith said:

jsf said:

The Hypno-Toad said:

jsf said:

Lots of rose tinted glasses in this thread.

Prior to Gordon Murray joining McLaren International, the place was a shambles.

Winning 12 races out of 16 in 1984. World Drivers Championship and Constructors Champions.

1985 World Drivers Championship and Constructors Champions.

1986 World Drivers Championship and 2nd in the Constructors Championship.

Yep, clearly the place was a total disaster zone.

1984 16 races, 11 retirements
1985 16 races, 14 retirements, 1 disqualification, 1 did not start
1986 16 races, 10 retirements, 1 disqualification
1987 16 races, 9 retirements
1988 16 races, 3 retirements, 1 disqualification

Speak to Gordon and Steve and they will tell you what they walked into, it wasn't what you would expect based on the image. The systems required simply were not there.

As I said, they had good engineers and drivers and a good basic car, but the foundation for the future domination needed to be put in place, Gordon and Steve sorted that out.

There's only one way to judge a team, and that's on whether they reached their targets. McL were after the WDC and WCC. They needed to do no more than beat those at the level they were competing. McL wanted the top slot. They got it with three WDCs and two WCCs. Judged against other new teams entering F1, this was a tremendous success. No team would be able to manage that nowadays, although I accept there are many more hurdles to overcome en route.

I started supporting McL at the start of MP4 and it seemed the only team anywhere near them for professionalism was Williams.

The only thing you can proved with bare stats is that you can't prove anything with them. The ones you quoted need to be measured against those of other teams as they were the ones that McL had to compete with. There was more or less continual improvement. 87 was a transitional year and Dennis spent wisely to pull in people to improve his team. He new what was needed and got it.

In 1988, the greatest McL season ever, the retirement you quoted was Senna being rammed by Schlesser. McL dominated the season. Whilst one can suggest it was down to the designer, the drivers, the aero, what is without doubt is that the bloke in charge, Dennis, had been working towards that level of competitiveness since the MP4/1.

Great times.

I think '88 was one of the most exciting seasons ever, with the battle between two drivers who seemed, perhaps I imagined it, not the best of friends, in equal cars.

Great memories.

Whilst that level of success hasn't been maintained, no other team has managed to either. Williams were in the doldrums for years. Ferrari needed a revolution to succeed and now are back at the level McL were when it received much criticism. Further, it was almost as if the management of F1 wanted to destroy McL with the £100,000,000 fine that the team managed to come through.

McLaren are no more. There's another team in its place this season, albeit with the same name. I think history will judge McL kindly. On standings alone - that's not statistics, it's results - they are up there with a few other greats.

McLaren were not a new team with the MP4 Derek.

You are also deliberately missing the point on what a shambles McLaren were when they recruited Steve and Gordon, without Steve and Gordon sorting out the teams organisation in the engineering department they were on their way down.

Ron's job was to sort out the commercial side, which he did extremely well, but on the engineering front it wasn't him that made the team the success they became, it was the engineering staff.

To say McLaren are no more because Ron isn't there anymore is plain dumb, the team is called McLaren because of its founder, Bruce. It's had numerous management structures since the day Bruce started it all up and then was killed.

[dr_gn]

stuttgartmetal said:

Ken Tyrell
Who ?

Tyrrell.

[rubystone]

jsf said:

McLaren were not a new team with the MP4 Derek.

You are also deliberately missing the point on what a shambles McLaren were when they recruited Steve and Gordon, without Steve and Gordon sorting out the teams organisation in the engineering department they were on their way down.

Ron's job was to sort out the commercial side, which he did extremely well, but on the engineering front it wasn't him that made the team the success they became, it was the engineering staff.

To say McLaren are no more because Ron isn't there anymore is plain dumb, the team is called McLaren because of its founder, Bruce. It's had numerous management structures since the day Bruce started it all up and then was killed.

The team lurched from crisis to crisis before Dennis arrived, it was doubtful it would survive under Bruce. You clearly have some beef with Dennis. I'd talk to the two Neils for their view too if I were you. If you know Gordon and Steve you'll know who I mean. The McLaren I grew up with and loved is no more.

[Fonz]

The question is who recognised that the engineering department needed to be sorted out and recruited SN and GM? Maybe a similar situation to the last few years which led to the recruitment of JC.

[Leithen]

Also worth bearing in mind that Ron Dennis was at the team right through the Garagiste period to the Modern Behemoth organisations that we have now. It's fair to say he embraced the changes sweeping through the sport and employed a number of key people that led the changes.

Listening to John Barnards recollection of the Hercules days alongside Patrick Head or Frank Dernie at the same time, reinforces how small the teams were in comparison to today.

[The Hypno-Toad]

jsf said:

Derek Smith said:

jsf said:

The Hypno-Toad said:

jsf said:

Lots of rose tinted glasses in this thread.

Prior to Gordon Murray joining McLaren International, the place was a shambles.

Winning 12 races out of 16 in 1984. World Drivers Championship and Constructors Champions.

1985 World Drivers Championship and Constructors Champions.

1986 World Drivers Championship and 2nd in the Constructors Championship.

Yep, clearly the place was a total disaster zone.

1984 16 races, 11 retirements
1985 16 races, 14 retirements, 1 disqualification, 1 did not start
1986 16 races, 10 retirements, 1 disqualification
1987 16 races, 9 retirements
1988 16 races, 3 retirements, 1 disqualification

Speak to Gordon and Steve and they will tell you what they walked into, it wasn't what you would expect based on the image. The systems required simply were not there.

As I said, they had good engineers and drivers and a good basic car, but the foundation for the future domination needed to be put in place, Gordon and Steve sorted that out.

There's only one way to judge a team, and that's on whether they reached their targets. McL were after the WDC and WCC. They needed to do no more than beat those at the level they were competing. McL wanted the top slot. They got it with three WDCs and two WCCs. Judged against other new teams entering F1, this was a tremendous success. No team would be able to manage that nowadays, although I accept there are many more hurdles to overcome en route.

I started supporting McL at the start of MP4 and it seemed the only team anywhere near them for professionalism was Williams.

The only thing you can proved with bare stats is that you can't prove anything with them. The ones you quoted need to be measured against those of other teams as they were the ones that McL had to compete with. There was more or less continual improvement. 87 was a transitional year and Dennis spent wisely to pull in people to improve his team. He new what was needed and got it.

In 1988, the greatest McL season ever, the retirement you quoted was Senna being rammed by Schlesser. McL dominated the season. Whilst one can suggest it was down to the designer, the drivers, the aero, what is without doubt is that the bloke in charge, Dennis, had been working towards that level of competitiveness since the MP4/1.

Great times.

I think '88 was one of the most exciting seasons ever, with the battle between two drivers who seemed, perhaps I imagined it, not the best of friends, in equal cars.

Great memories.

Whilst that level of success hasn't been maintained, no other team has managed to either. Williams were in the doldrums for years. Ferrari needed a revolution to succeed and now are back at the level McL were when it received much criticism. Further, it was almost as if the management of F1 wanted to destroy McL with the £100,000,000 fine that the team managed to come through.

McLaren are no more. There's another team in its place this season, albeit with the same name. I think history will judge McL kindly. On standings alone - that's not statistics, it's results - they are up there with a few other greats.

McLaren were not a new team with the MP4 Derek.

You are also deliberately missing the point on what a shambles McLaren were when they recruited Steve and Gordon, without Steve and Gordon sorting out the teams organisation in the engineering department they were on their way down.

Ron's job was to sort out the commercial side, which he did extremely well, but on the engineering front it wasn't him that made the team the success they became, it was the engineering staff.

To say McLaren are no more because Ron isn't there anymore is plain dumb, the team is called McLaren because of its founder, Bruce. It's had numerous management structures since the day Bruce started it all up and then was killed.

Lets have a look at the team Gordon Murray was helping to run before he joined McLaren.

Brabham

In F1 for 30 years, with GM joining the team at the start of the 70s.

35 total race wins out of 403 starts.
2 constructors championship, none with GM in the team.
4 drivers championships, two with GM in the team.

While GM was helping to run the team, the number one driver of the team was Nelson Piquet. So confident was the team that they could run two reliable cars they picked such well known, talented and respected drivers for the second car as;

Ricardo Zunino
Hector Rebeque
Corrodo Fabi
Francois Hesnault

Even when they did pick a second driver who might be capable of running with Piquet, one of them has basically accused the team of actually sabotaging his car to stop him beating Piquet in a recent published article.
In the middle of the 80s they wasted a race winning car by coupling it to rubbish Pirelli tyres and then they turned the most powerful engine in F1 on its side causing serious oil scavenging issues, while Benetton produced a car which won races with the same powerplant. And speaking of the BT55, two of its drivers actually reported that its driving position was so uncomfortable that they had difficultly breathing.

Now don't get me wrong, I am certainly not here to criticize Gordon Murray personally, I'm just pointing out that the company he worked for previously was not the organisational power house you seem to think it was.

However, there is no doubt whatsoever that he is a genius and one of the three greatest F1 designers of all times. He also designed the greatest road car ever built which will also go down in history as probably the last one to win Le Mans. In my opinion, the BT46, the BT52. the MP4/4 and yes even the BT55 are four of the most beautiful F1 cars ever built.

But at the end of the day in any sport, its all about winning. When you don't do that you're in trouble.

Just ask Claudio Ranieri.
Just ask Ron Dennis.

Edited by The Hypno-Toad on Saturday 25th February 21:52