McLaren - Ron Dennis set to leave McLaren F1
Discussion
rubystone said:
jsf said:
McLaren were not a new team with the MP4 Derek.
You are also deliberately missing the point on what a shambles McLaren were when they recruited Steve and Gordon, without Steve and Gordon sorting out the teams organisation in the engineering department they were on their way down.
Ron's job was to sort out the commercial side, which he did extremely well, but on the engineering front it wasn't him that made the team the success they became, it was the engineering staff.
To say McLaren are no more because Ron isn't there anymore is plain dumb, the team is called McLaren because of its founder, Bruce. It's had numerous management structures since the day Bruce started it all up and then was killed.
The team lurched from crisis to crisis before Dennis arrived, it was doubtful it would survive under Bruce. You clearly have some beef with Dennis. I'd talk to the two Neils for their view too if I were you. If you know Gordon and Steve you'll know who I mean. The McLaren I grew up with and loved is no more. You are also deliberately missing the point on what a shambles McLaren were when they recruited Steve and Gordon, without Steve and Gordon sorting out the teams organisation in the engineering department they were on their way down.
Ron's job was to sort out the commercial side, which he did extremely well, but on the engineering front it wasn't him that made the team the success they became, it was the engineering staff.
To say McLaren are no more because Ron isn't there anymore is plain dumb, the team is called McLaren because of its founder, Bruce. It's had numerous management structures since the day Bruce started it all up and then was killed.
You seem to think Bruce was around a lot longer than he was, he was killed in June 1970, a decade before Ron got involved in the team.
I know Neil Trundle well enough thanks. I have no issue with Ron, I have nothing but respect for what he has achieved, but there is an awful lot of b
ks talked about him too, without the engineering staff he wouldn't have achieved anything and its a fact of record that there was a lot to sort out in the teams engineering after Ron took control that was achieved by other people in the team. Ron's job was to provide the money and infrastructure, the engineering staff had to sort out the car design and the systems to make the cars quick and reliable. It was to Rons credit that he did just that and provided the team with the resources and leadership to succeed.
Anyone who says because Ron is no longer there, McLaren is dead are ignoring the 15 years history prior to his time, which is a bit daft. They are also ignoring the contribution of the staff at the team, the vast majority of which are still there.
The Hypno-Toad said:
Lets have a look at the team Gordon Murray was helping to run before he joined McLaren.
Brabham
In F1 for 30 years, with GM joining the team at the start of the 70s.
35 total race wins out of 403 starts.
2 constructors championship, none with GM in the team.
4 drivers championships, two with GM in the team.
While GM was helping to run the team, the number one driver of the team was Nelson Piquet. So confident was the team that they could run two reliable cars they picked such well known, talented and respected drivers for the second car as;
Ricardo Zunino
Hector Rebeque
Corrodo Fabi
Francois Hesnault
Even when they did pick a second driver who might be capable of running with Piquet, one of them has basically accused the team of actually sabotaging his car to stop him beating Piquet in a recent published article.
In the middle of the 80s they wasted a race winning car by coupling it to rubbish Pirelli tyres and then they turned the most powerful engine in F1 on its side causing serious oil scavenging issues, while Benetton produced a car which won races with the same powerplant. And speaking of the BT55, two of its drivers actually reported that its driving position was so uncomfortable that they had difficultly breathing.
Now don't get me wrong, I am certainly not here to criticize Gordon Murray personally, I'm just pointing out that the company he worked for previously was not the organisational power house you seem to think it was.
However, there is no doubt whatsoever that he is a genius and one of the three greatest F1 designers of all times. He also designed the greatest road car ever built which will also go down in history as probably the last one to win Le Mans. In my opinion, the BT46, the BT52. the MP4/4 and yes even the BT55 are four of the most beautiful F1 cars ever built.
But at the end of the day in any sport, its all about winning. When you don't do that you're in trouble.
Just ask Claudio Ranieri.
Just ask Ron Dennis.
Brabham was run on a shoestring budget and well beyond the success of the early days by the time GM arrived, which is why they were stuck with 2nd rate 2nd drivers who were there to bring some money. What he achieved was pretty remarkable when you look at what he had to deal with and how much experience he had.Brabham
In F1 for 30 years, with GM joining the team at the start of the 70s.
35 total race wins out of 403 starts.
2 constructors championship, none with GM in the team.
4 drivers championships, two with GM in the team.
While GM was helping to run the team, the number one driver of the team was Nelson Piquet. So confident was the team that they could run two reliable cars they picked such well known, talented and respected drivers for the second car as;
Ricardo Zunino
Hector Rebeque
Corrodo Fabi
Francois Hesnault
Even when they did pick a second driver who might be capable of running with Piquet, one of them has basically accused the team of actually sabotaging his car to stop him beating Piquet in a recent published article.
In the middle of the 80s they wasted a race winning car by coupling it to rubbish Pirelli tyres and then they turned the most powerful engine in F1 on its side causing serious oil scavenging issues, while Benetton produced a car which won races with the same powerplant. And speaking of the BT55, two of its drivers actually reported that its driving position was so uncomfortable that they had difficultly breathing.
Now don't get me wrong, I am certainly not here to criticize Gordon Murray personally, I'm just pointing out that the company he worked for previously was not the organisational power house you seem to think it was.
However, there is no doubt whatsoever that he is a genius and one of the three greatest F1 designers of all times. He also designed the greatest road car ever built which will also go down in history as probably the last one to win Le Mans. In my opinion, the BT46, the BT52. the MP4/4 and yes even the BT55 are four of the most beautiful F1 cars ever built.
But at the end of the day in any sport, its all about winning. When you don't do that you're in trouble.
Just ask Claudio Ranieri.
Just ask Ron Dennis.
Edited by The Hypno-Toad on Saturday 25th February 21:52
jsf said:
McLaren were not a new team with the MP4 Derek.
You are also deliberately missing the point on what a shambles McLaren were when they recruited Steve and Gordon, without Steve and Gordon sorting out the teams organisation in the engineering department they were on their way down.
Ron's job was to sort out the commercial side, which he did extremely well, but on the engineering front it wasn't him that made the team the success they became, it was the engineering staff.
To say McLaren are no more because Ron isn't there anymore is plain dumb, the team is called McLaren because of its founder, Bruce. It's had numerous management structures since the day Bruce started it all up and then was killed.
The team name was, for the majority, vast majority, of its F1 life in the hands of Dennis. He was McLaren the team. The new owners want to move away from the Dennis era, removing even, probably especially, the MP4 tag. In this I'm happy to support them. It is not the McLaren team I know. It will be different, as it was a different team when Dennis changed the nomenclature to MP4. I think you are placing too much emphasis on the McLaren name. It is a convenience. You are also deliberately missing the point on what a shambles McLaren were when they recruited Steve and Gordon, without Steve and Gordon sorting out the teams organisation in the engineering department they were on their way down.
Ron's job was to sort out the commercial side, which he did extremely well, but on the engineering front it wasn't him that made the team the success they became, it was the engineering staff.
To say McLaren are no more because Ron isn't there anymore is plain dumb, the team is called McLaren because of its founder, Bruce. It's had numerous management structures since the day Bruce started it all up and then was killed.
The team was, in many people's eyes at the time, Dennis' MP4 team from F2 days. I think you will find that if Dennis had changed the name of the team, he would have had to pay more money, so that stood no chance. Also it was useful for marketing. McLaren the team was as much Ron's as Williams is Frank's. The fact that it is not called Dennis is neither here nor there. My information is that Dennis was/is a great fan of Bruce McLaren (I doubt very much if the new owners are of the same mind) and that may well have had some influence on his decision, although probably not as much as the money savings.
McLaren was MP4 Racing, with the M being a convenience given that originally it stood for Marlborough. The fact that it was the name of every car right up until 2016 does, I think, support that it was Dennis' team from the time he took over the name.
Shambles is an emotive word that conveys very little in this instance. The question is in all such things whether there were organised sufficiently well to complete their task.
Colin Chapman is supposed to have said that if one of his cars falls to pieces as it crosses the finishing line in first place, then he would be satisfied. Or maybe it was 'if the cars is in one piece when it crosses the line it is too heavy. Whatever, in other words, he wanted to do just enough to win. Everything else was secondary. In the years before Murray et al were recruited into McLaren by Dennis, the team, in MP4 guise, was successful by anyone's reckoning, especially those managers of teams he beat. That's all that was needed. So can shambles be appropriate? Perhaps only just organised enough, which is an accolade.
It would appear that when Dennis wanted his team to get better he took steps to make it better. That's what good managers do. It was down to him whom he employed so the step forward was from his efforts.
I know Dennis isn't a god. He was just better than any god.
I wish him all the best in whatever he chooses to do, and I thank him for all the years of entertainment he gave me, even though that wasn't his intention. He was there to win.
Derek Smith said:
jsf said:
McLaren were not a new team with the MP4 Derek.
You are also deliberately missing the point on what a shambles McLaren were when they recruited Steve and Gordon, without Steve and Gordon sorting out the teams organisation in the engineering department they were on their way down.
Ron's job was to sort out the commercial side, which he did extremely well, but on the engineering front it wasn't him that made the team the success they became, it was the engineering staff.
To say McLaren are no more because Ron isn't there anymore is plain dumb, the team is called McLaren because of its founder, Bruce. It's had numerous management structures since the day Bruce started it all up and then was killed.
The team name was, for the majority, vast majority, of its F1 life in the hands of Dennis. He was McLaren the team. The new owners want to move away from the Dennis era, removing even, probably especially, the MP4 tag. In this I'm happy to support them. It is not the McLaren team I know. It will be different, as it was a different team when Dennis changed the nomenclature to MP4. I think you are placing too much emphasis on the McLaren name. It is a convenience. You are also deliberately missing the point on what a shambles McLaren were when they recruited Steve and Gordon, without Steve and Gordon sorting out the teams organisation in the engineering department they were on their way down.
Ron's job was to sort out the commercial side, which he did extremely well, but on the engineering front it wasn't him that made the team the success they became, it was the engineering staff.
To say McLaren are no more because Ron isn't there anymore is plain dumb, the team is called McLaren because of its founder, Bruce. It's had numerous management structures since the day Bruce started it all up and then was killed.
The team was, in many people's eyes at the time, Dennis' MP4 team from F2 days. I think you will find that if Dennis had changed the name of the team, he would have had to pay more money, so that stood no chance. Also it was useful for marketing. McLaren the team was as much Ron's as Williams is Frank's. The fact that it is not called Dennis is neither here nor there. My information is that Dennis was/is a great fan of Bruce McLaren (I doubt very much if the new owners are of the same mind) and that may well have had some influence on his decision, although probably not as much as the money savings.
McLaren was MP4 Racing, with the M being a convenience given that originally it stood for Marlborough. The fact that it was the name of every car right up until 2016 does, I think, support that it was Dennis' team from the time he took over the name.
Shambles is an emotive word that conveys very little in this instance. The question is in all such things whether there were organised sufficiently well to complete their task.
Colin Chapman is supposed to have said that if one of his cars falls to pieces as it crosses the finishing line in first place, then he would be satisfied. Or maybe it was 'if the cars is in one piece when it crosses the line it is too heavy. Whatever, in other words, he wanted to do just enough to win. Everything else was secondary. In the years before Murray et al were recruited into McLaren by Dennis, the team, in MP4 guise, was successful by anyone's reckoning, especially those managers of teams he beat. That's all that was needed. So can shambles be appropriate? Perhaps only just organised enough, which is an accolade.
It would appear that when Dennis wanted his team to get better he took steps to make it better. That's what good managers do. It was down to him whom he employed so the step forward was from his efforts.
I know Dennis isn't a god. He was just better than any god.
I wish him all the best in whatever he chooses to do, and I thank him for all the years of entertainment he gave me, even though that wasn't his intention. He was there to win.
Teddy wanted to employ John Barnard in 1979 and offered him a job, but John wouldn't join the team unless the current McLaren designer left, as he wasn't prepared to allow his designs to have credit taken away from him, as had happened previously to him under Jim Hall at Chaparal.
That's how Ron ended up with John Barnard as his designer. It was John that Marlboro really wanted on board McLaren to get them out of the slump they had fallen into, it just happened that he was now tied in with Ron at Project 4. To enable the merger to occur McLaren ended the contract with Gordon, which paved the way for John to be happy to stay with the merged teams.
After the merger it was Teddy who was the team manager running the team for the first 2 years, Ron was responsible for sponsorship, at the start of McLaren International it was not Ron's team, Teddy Mayer was the largest shareholder at 45%, he was joint MD with Ron and was also chairman of the company, with Tyler Alexander and John Barnard taking directorships.
For the first period of the merged team they ran the M29C and M30 McLarens, not the Project 4 John Barnard designed car, with John adding improvements to them during the season. They then spent half a season swapping between the modified M29 and MP4 whilst the bugs were ironed out of the new car.
It wasn't until December 1982 that Ron took control of McLaren International, almost 20 years after Bruce formed the team. It was then that Ron bought out Teddy Mayer and Tyler Alexander, until that time McLaren International was run by Teddy, as it was under the previous name of Team McLaren.
Ron was the public face of McLaren for 60% of its history, the other 40% was Bruce and Teddy.
As to being fans of Bruce, you haven't met Zac Brown I guess based on your comments. He is a big fan of the history of the sport and McLaren.
As to McLaren being a new team now, the senior team owner, Mansour Ojjeh has been a major part of the McLaren International story from the moment Ron got involved, bankrolling the TAG Turbo Porsche built engine for the MP4 in 1981 and taking a majority share holding in McLaren International in 1984. The team was only majority owned by Ron for 1 year.
I wasn't aware Mansoor ever owned a majority stake. I'm aware Ron offered him a 25% share though, back when they were friends, before Mansoor decided Rob was to blame for the marriage break up. I've met Zac and yes, he's a big fan of McLaren and its history and owns several ex F1 cars. If Ron was really responsible for the funding, he must've been really crap at his job....Teddy ran out of funds in 1980 and Ron had to tap up John Hogan for the Marlboro cash second time around as it were. of course you know who's behind that little Kiwi on the MP cars? A tradition that Zac has retained with the new car. For me, McLaren started and finished with Ron Dennis, despite what others may think.
jsf said:
Sorry Derek, but you are wrong on many counts. Dennis didn't buy McLaren, McLaren International was formed from a merger of the McLaren team run by Teddy Mayer and the Project Four team run by Ron Dennis. The resultant merger had Teddy owning the most shares.
Teddy wanted to employ John Barnard in 1979 and offered him a job, but John wouldn't join the team unless the current McLaren designer left, as he wasn't prepared to allow his designs to have credit taken away from him, as had happened previously to him under Jim Hall at Chaparal.
That's how Ron ended up with John Barnard as his designer. It was John that Marlboro really wanted on board McLaren to get them out of the slump they had fallen into, it just happened that he was now tied in with Ron at Project 4. To enable the merger to occur McLaren ended the contract with Gordon, which paved the way for John to be happy to stay with the merged teams.
After the merger it was Teddy who was the team manager running the team for the first 2 years, Ron was responsible for sponsorship, at the start of McLaren International it was not Ron's team, Teddy Mayer was the largest shareholder at 45%, he was joint MD with Ron and was also chairman of the company, with Tyler Alexander and John Barnard taking directorships.
For the first period of the merged team they ran the M29C and M30 McLarens, not the Project 4 John Barnard designed car, with John adding improvements to them during the season. They then spent half a season swapping between the modified M29 and MP4 whilst the bugs were ironed out of the new car.
It wasn't until December 1982 that Ron took control of McLaren International, almost 20 years after Bruce formed the team. It was then that Ron bought out Teddy Mayer and Tyler Alexander, until that time McLaren International was run by Teddy, as it was under the previous name of Team McLaren.
Ron was the public face of McLaren for 60% of its history, the other 40% was Bruce and Teddy.
As to being fans of Bruce, you haven't met Zac Brown I guess based on your comments. He is a big fan of the history of the sport and McLaren.
As to McLaren being a new team now, the senior team owner, Mansour Ojjeh has been a major part of the McLaren International story from the moment Ron got involved, bankrolling the TAG Turbo Porsche built engine for the MP4 in 1981 and taking a majority share holding in McLaren International in 1984. The team was only majority owned by Ron for 1 year.
We'll have to disagree then.Teddy wanted to employ John Barnard in 1979 and offered him a job, but John wouldn't join the team unless the current McLaren designer left, as he wasn't prepared to allow his designs to have credit taken away from him, as had happened previously to him under Jim Hall at Chaparal.
That's how Ron ended up with John Barnard as his designer. It was John that Marlboro really wanted on board McLaren to get them out of the slump they had fallen into, it just happened that he was now tied in with Ron at Project 4. To enable the merger to occur McLaren ended the contract with Gordon, which paved the way for John to be happy to stay with the merged teams.
After the merger it was Teddy who was the team manager running the team for the first 2 years, Ron was responsible for sponsorship, at the start of McLaren International it was not Ron's team, Teddy Mayer was the largest shareholder at 45%, he was joint MD with Ron and was also chairman of the company, with Tyler Alexander and John Barnard taking directorships.
For the first period of the merged team they ran the M29C and M30 McLarens, not the Project 4 John Barnard designed car, with John adding improvements to them during the season. They then spent half a season swapping between the modified M29 and MP4 whilst the bugs were ironed out of the new car.
It wasn't until December 1982 that Ron took control of McLaren International, almost 20 years after Bruce formed the team. It was then that Ron bought out Teddy Mayer and Tyler Alexander, until that time McLaren International was run by Teddy, as it was under the previous name of Team McLaren.
Ron was the public face of McLaren for 60% of its history, the other 40% was Bruce and Teddy.
As to being fans of Bruce, you haven't met Zac Brown I guess based on your comments. He is a big fan of the history of the sport and McLaren.
As to McLaren being a new team now, the senior team owner, Mansour Ojjeh has been a major part of the McLaren International story from the moment Ron got involved, bankrolling the TAG Turbo Porsche built engine for the MP4 in 1981 and taking a majority share holding in McLaren International in 1984. The team was only majority owned by Ron for 1 year.
I'm sure a lot of you have heard/seen the Alister Caldwell Motorsport Magazine Podcasts, but if you haven't please do take a listen;
https://youtu.be/FsbXE2Owaps
In this particular one, if you go straight to 1:16.20 AC briefly goes into a little detail about his days at Brabham alongside Gordon Murray which may be of interest to those reading this thread. However, I must say you should really just listen to the whole thing as AC tells such a good yarn you simply can't not enjoy his tales!
https://youtu.be/FsbXE2Owaps
In this particular one, if you go straight to 1:16.20 AC briefly goes into a little detail about his days at Brabham alongside Gordon Murray which may be of interest to those reading this thread. However, I must say you should really just listen to the whole thing as AC tells such a good yarn you simply can't not enjoy his tales!
rubystone said:
I wasn't aware Mansoor ever owned a majority stake. I'm aware Ron offered him a 25% share though, back when they were friends, before Mansoor decided Rob was to blame for the marriage break up. I've met Zac and yes, he's a big fan of McLaren and its history and owns several ex F1 cars. If Ron was really responsible for the funding, he must've been really crap at his job....Teddy ran out of funds in 1980 and Ron had to tap up John Hogan for the Marlboro cash second time around as it were. of course you know who's behind that little Kiwi on the MP cars? A tradition that Zac has retained with the new car. For me, McLaren started and finished with Ron Dennis, despite what others may think.
Another revisionist historian.Mansour Ojjeh is as much a part of McLaren International as Ron was, and the other shareholders that have been a part of the ownership in recent years are still there now.
Ron only had a majority stake for 1 year, then Mansour bought into the company, since 2000 when Daimler bought 40% of the business both Ron and Mansour have been minority shareholders. in 2007 Ron's shareholding dropped to only 15% when the Bahrainis got involved. At the time of his removal he was a 25% shareholder due to the buy back that occurred when Daimler sold their stake.
To say McLaren started and finished with Ron is absurd.
jsf said:
Another revisionist historian.
Mansour Ojjeh is as much a part of McLaren International as Ron was, and the other shareholders that have been a part of the ownership in recent years are still there now.
Ron only had a majority stake for 1 year, then Mansour bought into the company, since 2000 when Daimler bought 40% of the business both Ron and Mansour have been minority shareholders. in 2007 Ron's shareholding dropped to only 15% when the Bahrainis got involved. At the time of his removal he was a 25% shareholder due to the buy back that occurred when Daimler sold their stake.
To say McLaren started and finished with Ron is absurd.
We'll have to disagree then.Mansour Ojjeh is as much a part of McLaren International as Ron was, and the other shareholders that have been a part of the ownership in recent years are still there now.
Ron only had a majority stake for 1 year, then Mansour bought into the company, since 2000 when Daimler bought 40% of the business both Ron and Mansour have been minority shareholders. in 2007 Ron's shareholding dropped to only 15% when the Bahrainis got involved. At the time of his removal he was a 25% shareholder due to the buy back that occurred when Daimler sold their stake.
To say McLaren started and finished with Ron is absurd.
jsf said:
Derek Smith said:
We'll have to disagree then.
If you wish to disagree with history that's your prerogative I guess Derek.What I said was that McLaren before GM came was very successful. It won WDCs and WCCs. Shambolic is hardly the description of the team. It is nonsensical. The team was the most successful in that period so every bit as good as it needed to be. In F1 that’s what it is about, and that’s what McL was.
As I said, the only question that needs to be asked is whether the team was organised sufficiently well to hit its targets. I don’t think any interpretation of history suggests it was not.
You could argue that it wasn’t as well organised as it could be. So what? It was not symbolic though.
What is indisputable is:
The Hypno-Toad said:
Winning 12 races out of 16 in 1984. World Drivers Championship and Constructors Champions.
1985 World Drivers Championship and Constructors Champions.
1986 World Drivers Championship and 2nd in the Constructors Championship.
It was as good as it needed to be.1985 World Drivers Championship and Constructors Champions.
1986 World Drivers Championship and 2nd in the Constructors Championship.
As for McLaren not being a new team, then that is open to individual point of view. For me it is spot on. MP4 was Ron Dennis, and the new owners know full well. My belief is that their intention in renaming the cars was to remove Dennis from the team. To them it is a new era for the team but with the same name.
It is the same for me.
As I say, I doubt you and I will agree over this, but suggesting I ignore history is wrong.
The Hypno-Toad said:
. . .
Even when they did pick a second driver who might be capable of running with Piquet, one of them has basically accused the team of actually sabotaging his car to stop him beating Piquet in a recent published article.
Have you a link to that article?Even when they did pick a second driver who might be capable of running with Piquet, one of them has basically accused the team of actually sabotaging his car to stop him beating Piquet in a recent published article.
Piquet, of course, benefited from more powerful engines than his team mate in Williams/Honda days. When Mansell pointed this out, the motor sport press derided him, and many spectators who were convinced Piquet was so much better than his team mater were convinced.
Later Honda admitted that they tuned the engines for the drivers to reflect their needs. So I was wrong.
The Hypno-Toad said:
In my opinion, the BT46, the BT52. the MP4/4 and yes even the BT55 are four of the most beautiful F1 cars ever built.
The BT55 was stunning so it was a shame it was so slow. I saw it at Goodwood FoS this year. It still looked fantastic.Edited by The Hypno-Toad on Saturday 25th February 21:52
Derek, there are no new owners.
Mansour Ojjeh has been there from the start of McLaren International, he has as much right to call McLaren his team as Ron does.
The other owners (Bahrain) have been there since 2007, and they owned more of the company than Ron and Mansour until the final buyout from Daimler, where they now own a 50% share, the majority share holders.
This is how Ron got booted out, he was and still is a minority shareholder, his bid to buy back enough shares to take control failed.
It amazes me that you can completely ignore the history of McLaren because it doesn't fit your narrative.
Mansour Ojjeh has been there from the start of McLaren International, he has as much right to call McLaren his team as Ron does.
The other owners (Bahrain) have been there since 2007, and they owned more of the company than Ron and Mansour until the final buyout from Daimler, where they now own a 50% share, the majority share holders.
This is how Ron got booted out, he was and still is a minority shareholder, his bid to buy back enough shares to take control failed.
It amazes me that you can completely ignore the history of McLaren because it doesn't fit your narrative.
Derek Smith said:
The Hypno-Toad said:
In my opinion, the BT46, the BT52. the MP4/4 and yes even the BT55 are four of the most beautiful F1 cars ever built.
The BT55 was stunning so it was a shame it was so slow. I saw it at Goodwood FoS this year. It still looked fantastic.Edited by The Hypno-Toad on Saturday 25th February 21:52
Little did he know I'd heard my father talk about this new Brazilian who was the talk of the town so I naturally conceded and started following Senna.
Now as much as Senna was my man, I can distinctly remember seeing EdA in his Brabham and being blown away by the look of the thing. I'm sure it doesn't look so radical now but it was so amazing in a sea of hump-backed tall GP cars I was seriously jealous that he got to drive it.
Of course it was crap. A dint of it being just too far ahead of it's time but I envied EdA in that car and was sad to hear of him perishing in testing. I've always felt a little mean that I fobbed him off on my mate only for him to die but even though he had a torrid year there was just something about that car. Vindication for GM that with a proper team behind him he got the idea to work properly with the MP4/4.
Poignant to hear Alister Caldwell's thoughts on the team in the link I posted above.
Some info for those who aren't aware of what we're rambling about;
https://www.carthrottle.com/post/al2x5l7/
RIP Elio
jsf said:
Derek, there are no new owners.
Mansour Ojjeh has been there from the start of McLaren International, he has as much right to call McLaren his team as Ron does.
The other owners (Bahrain) have been there since 2007, and they owned more of the company than Ron and Mansour until the final buyout from Daimler, where they now own a 50% share, the majority share holders.
This is how Ron got booted out, he was and still is a minority shareholder, his bid to buy back enough shares to take control failed.
It amazes me that you can completely ignore the history of McLaren because it doesn't fit your narrative.
Well, it's a point of view. Mansour Ojjeh has been there from the start of McLaren International, he has as much right to call McLaren his team as Ron does.
The other owners (Bahrain) have been there since 2007, and they owned more of the company than Ron and Mansour until the final buyout from Daimler, where they now own a 50% share, the majority share holders.
This is how Ron got booted out, he was and still is a minority shareholder, his bid to buy back enough shares to take control failed.
It amazes me that you can completely ignore the history of McLaren because it doesn't fit your narrative.
Mansour O was what in the team? Spannerman? The bloke who designed the aero? Tactician? Or merely the money man? Wasn't he the same sort of thing to Williams earlier as well but there are few who would support the suggestion that Head and Frank W were not Williams. It's the same with Dennis.
I think you are putting too much emphasis on money. It is the problem with F1.
Then again, had Dennis taken more notice of it and know of the pitfalls of allowing others to have control over the outcome, he would still be McLaren, and the McL of old would still exist.
Money has a role to play of course, no one would suggest otherwise, but it doesn't buy everything.
Derek Smith said:
Well, it's a point of view.
Mansour O was what in the team? Spannerman? The bloke who designed the aero? Tactician? Or merely the money man? Wasn't he the same sort of thing to Williams earlier as well but there are few who would support the suggestion that Head and Frank W were not Williams. It's the same with Dennis.
I think you are putting too much emphasis on money. It is the problem with F1.
Then again, had Dennis taken more notice of it and know of the pitfalls of allowing others to have control over the outcome, he would still be McLaren, and the McL of old would still exist.
Money has a role to play of course, no one would suggest otherwise, but it doesn't buy everything.
MO was not a shareholder at Williams, he owned TAG and got involved via the Saudia team sponsorship initially.Mansour O was what in the team? Spannerman? The bloke who designed the aero? Tactician? Or merely the money man? Wasn't he the same sort of thing to Williams earlier as well but there are few who would support the suggestion that Head and Frank W were not Williams. It's the same with Dennis.
I think you are putting too much emphasis on money. It is the problem with F1.
Then again, had Dennis taken more notice of it and know of the pitfalls of allowing others to have control over the outcome, he would still be McLaren, and the McL of old would still exist.
Money has a role to play of course, no one would suggest otherwise, but it doesn't buy everything.
That's not the case with McLaren International where he actively became a team owner with Ron as the other half.
Why don't you read some books on McLaren Derek, the ones I have are written by good authors such as Doug Nye, I also have the official books McLaren released in 2011 called McLaren the Wins and McLaren the Cars, which includes all the teams history from the moment Bruce set the team up. There is no attempt to suggest the pre Ron era of McLaren doesn't matter or isn't McLaren.
For you to try and airbrush that part of their history as not being relevant to the current team is utterly bizarre to me.
I didn't want to get into the financial structure of the team because that's not that important, but had little choice when you continued to bang on about how McLaren is not McLaren without Ron Dennis. It completely ignores the reality of the teams history.
jsf said:
Derek, there are no new owners.
Mansour Ojjeh has been there from the start of McLaren International, he has as much right to call McLaren his team as Ron does.
The other owners (Bahrain) have been there since 2007, and they owned more of the company than Ron and Mansour until the final buyout from Daimler, where they now own a 50% share, the majority share holders.
This is how Ron got booted out, he was and still is a minority shareholder, his bid to buy back enough shares to take control failed.
It amazes me that you can completely ignore the history of McLaren because it doesn't fit your narrative.
His bid didn't fail, it was turned down. Yes, technically he ran out of time, but still tabled an offer which extended beyond the F1 team. You're being disingenuous when you take Derek to task over the 'new' owners. Talk to your friends on the inside to understand what manouvering took place internally. Mansour Ojjeh has been there from the start of McLaren International, he has as much right to call McLaren his team as Ron does.
The other owners (Bahrain) have been there since 2007, and they owned more of the company than Ron and Mansour until the final buyout from Daimler, where they now own a 50% share, the majority share holders.
This is how Ron got booted out, he was and still is a minority shareholder, his bid to buy back enough shares to take control failed.
It amazes me that you can completely ignore the history of McLaren because it doesn't fit your narrative.
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