McLaren - Ron Dennis set to leave McLaren F1
Discussion
jsf said:
I also have the official books McLaren released in 2011 called McLaren the Wins and McLaren the Cars, which includes all the teams history from the moment Bruce set the team up. There is no attempt to suggest the pre Ron era of McLaren doesn't matter or isn't McLaren.
So do I and what's ironic is that Ron didn't want them published. That had to be done behind his back by someone else. Neither they nor I really know the reasons why he didn't want them published. LaurasOtherHalf said:
Derek Smith said:
The BT55 was stunning so it was a shame it was so slow. I saw it at Goodwood FoS this year. It still looked fantastic.
God I loved that car, I'm truly jealous you got to see it run at the FOS. Back when we were kids, we were Lotus fans, mainly due to my mates father owning an élan but also due to my father's admiration of the team-we both agreed the JPS scheme was second to none. Anyway, as two young lads my mate and I latched onto the new Lotus drivers, one A Senna and E d'Angelis. We obviously couldn't support the same one so I suggested EdA was the finest driver which naturally made my young pal proclaim him as his man.Little did he know I'd heard my father talk about this new Brazilian who was the talk of the town so I naturally conceded and started following Senna.
Now as much as Senna was my man, I can distinctly remember seeing EdA in his Brabham and being blown away by the look of the thing. I'm sure it doesn't look so radical now but it was so amazing in a sea of hump-backed tall GP cars I was seriously jealous that he got to drive it.
Of course it was crap. A dint of it being just too far ahead of it's time but I envied EdA in that car and was sad to hear of him perishing in testing. I've always felt a little mean that I fobbed him off on my mate only for him to die but even though he had a torrid year there was just something about that car. Vindication for GM that with a proper team behind him he got the idea to work properly with the MP4/4.
RIP Elio
As you say, GM got it very right with the low line concept when he got to McLaren but one wonders what might have happened if that Brabham had an engine that was actually built for the design of the car. Flat 6 with a turbo?
Derek, you have mail. The Hypno-Toad said:
LaurasOtherHalf said:
Derek Smith said:
The BT55 was stunning so it was a shame it was so slow. I saw it at Goodwood FoS this year. It still looked fantastic.
God I loved that car, I'm truly jealous you got to see it run at the FOS. Back when we were kids, we were Lotus fans, mainly due to my mates father owning an élan but also due to my father's admiration of the team-we both agreed the JPS scheme was second to none. Anyway, as two young lads my mate and I latched onto the new Lotus drivers, one A Senna and E d'Angelis. We obviously couldn't support the same one so I suggested EdA was the finest driver which naturally made my young pal proclaim him as his man.Little did he know I'd heard my father talk about this new Brazilian who was the talk of the town so I naturally conceded and started following Senna.
Now as much as Senna was my man, I can distinctly remember seeing EdA in his Brabham and being blown away by the look of the thing. I'm sure it doesn't look so radical now but it was so amazing in a sea of hump-backed tall GP cars I was seriously jealous that he got to drive it.
Of course it was crap. A dint of it being just too far ahead of it's time but I envied EdA in that car and was sad to hear of him perishing in testing. I've always felt a little mean that I fobbed him off on my mate only for him to die but even though he had a torrid year there was just something about that car. Vindication for GM that with a proper team behind him he got the idea to work properly with the MP4/4.
RIP Elio
As you say, GM got it very right with the low line concept when he got to McLaren but one wonders what might have happened if that Brabham had an engine that was actually built for the design of the car. Flat 6 with a turbo?
Derek, you have mail. Regardless, what a good looking car!
jsf said:
MO was not a shareholder at Williams, he owned TAG and got involved via the Saudia team sponsorship initially.
That's not the case with McLaren International where he actively became a team owner with Ron as the other half.
Why don't you read some books on McLaren Derek, the ones I have are written by good authors such as Doug Nye, I also have the official books McLaren released in 2011 called McLaren the Wins and McLaren the Cars, which includes all the teams history from the moment Bruce set the team up. There is no attempt to suggest the pre Ron era of McLaren doesn't matter or isn't McLaren.
For you to try and airbrush that part of their history as not being relevant to the current team is utterly bizarre to me.
I didn't want to get into the financial structure of the team because that's not that important, but had little choice when you continued to bang on about how McLaren is not McLaren without Ron Dennis. It completely ignores the reality of the teams history.
I've not said that the previous teams bearing the name did not matter, merely that Dennis' McLaren was in effect a different team. That's not the case with McLaren International where he actively became a team owner with Ron as the other half.
Why don't you read some books on McLaren Derek, the ones I have are written by good authors such as Doug Nye, I also have the official books McLaren released in 2011 called McLaren the Wins and McLaren the Cars, which includes all the teams history from the moment Bruce set the team up. There is no attempt to suggest the pre Ron era of McLaren doesn't matter or isn't McLaren.
For you to try and airbrush that part of their history as not being relevant to the current team is utterly bizarre to me.
I didn't want to get into the financial structure of the team because that's not that important, but had little choice when you continued to bang on about how McLaren is not McLaren without Ron Dennis. It completely ignores the reality of the teams history.
You've not used the word shambles in recent posts. That was my main point. Do you now agree that McL's organisation was not inferior to that of any other, and was as good as it needed to be?
McL under previous stewardship has not been airbrushed by me although I think it has been polished a bit by you. I've just suggested that when Dennis moved in via MP4 it was, in effect, a takeover. Or, to put it another way, a new team. I'm not suggesting that it was in any way inferior before, although I would point out that under Dennis' early stewardship, it was somewhat better organised than when Hunt won his championship.
Dennis bought out McLaren, with other people's money I agree, but it was his team in the sense that he ran it. MO might have some interest in it, but Dennis ran it. It was his team. And not only that, it was different to the earlier incarnations.
Now Dennis has gone it will have someone else at the head.
Or, to put it another way, Williams has been floated on the stock exchange. It is still as much Williams' though, together with Head despite him shedding a lot/most of his shares. Clair is running it now. I had to look up who was the CEO because who cares. Both Williamses and Head are the team in the same way of Dennis at McL. The percentage of shares has nothing to do with it.
So if we agree that Dennis' team before GM joined wasn't a shambles as it did what it was supposed do, then if you don't understand where I'm coming from regarding it being another team then so be it. Counting money is not relevant. Your airbrush is just what the current owners of McL are doing with Dennis' organisation. His choice of management, his nomenclature and, of course, him. I know nothing about the take-over, but it seems a bit nasty to me.
It's a new team.
I have books on McL. One is signed by both Dennis, courtesy of a couple of visits to the paddock club, and the late Peter Gethin, courtesy of taking my staff around Goodwood. I'm not open to offers.
Historically, Dennis MP4 McL team won 7 WCCs (8 if you know anything about Stepneygate), Ferrari 9 (8 if you know anything about Stepneygate) and Williams 7. The rest are nowhere. From '83, McL in MP4 guise has taken 10 WDCs, Ferrari, 6.
To me, and others, McL was Dennis in the same way McLaren was McLaren when he ran it. It's a simple enough point of view.
So bored of this now Derek.
Watch this if you want Gordon's take on what he walked into at McLaren https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wVX7jvYT5is 32 minutes in.
Watch this if you want Gordon's take on what he walked into at McLaren https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wVX7jvYT5is 32 minutes in.
jsf said:
So bored of this now Derek.
Watch this if you want Gordon's take on what he walked into at McLaren https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wVX7jvYT5is 32 minutes in.
GM is well respected but I may be wrong, whenever I've heard or read his comments I've always considered his view decidedly one sided. I'm not sure how much stock I'd put in his recollections, genius that he is.Watch this if you want Gordon's take on what he walked into at McLaren https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wVX7jvYT5is 32 minutes in.
Again, I refer back to AC's views posted on the previous page.
jsf said:
So bored of this now Derek.
Watch this if you want Gordon's take on what he walked into at McLaren https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wVX7jvYT5is 32 minutes in.
I'm not sure I'd believe anything he says.Watch this if you want Gordon's take on what he walked into at McLaren https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wVX7jvYT5is 32 minutes in.
Edited by rubystone on Sunday 26th February 23:56
Personally I agree with the sentiment that he left in a poor way given everything he has helped the team achieve, but given the way he treated MO when he was very ill in hospital it is hardly surprising the MO manipulated Ron out of the team. You reap what you sew.
For all the sponsorship Ron has brought to the team he has also caused a lot to walk away because he is so difficult to work with.
For all the sponsorship Ron has brought to the team he has also caused a lot to walk away because he is so difficult to work with.
Some people can't deal with a demanding target
Let me rephrase that
Losers can't deal with a demanding target.
They get a bit flustered.
Ron will find something else to do.
Every team has to deal with the ups and downs.
Will McLaren be back on the top step again?
Not for a long long time. Is my guess.
Let me rephrase that
Losers can't deal with a demanding target.
They get a bit flustered.
Ron will find something else to do.
Every team has to deal with the ups and downs.
Will McLaren be back on the top step again?
Not for a long long time. Is my guess.
I didn't see that one coming. MoD?
Off topic but worth a post:
I saw Warwick, I think, drive it at Brands Hatch. It didn't do much but looked wonderful. It finished, but way back. We were on South Bank for race day and we saw the only notable event of the race, Piquet not coming out of the pits quickly enough.
Edited to add a better view:
Off topic but worth a post:
I saw Warwick, I think, drive it at Brands Hatch. It didn't do much but looked wonderful. It finished, but way back. We were on South Bank for race day and we saw the only notable event of the race, Piquet not coming out of the pits quickly enough.
Edited to add a better view:
Edited by Derek Smith on Monday 27th February 21:16
LaurasOtherHalf said:
jsf said:
So bored of this now Derek.
Watch this if you want Gordon's take on what he walked into at McLaren https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wVX7jvYT5is 32 minutes in.
GM is well respected but I may be wrong, whenever I've heard or read his comments I've always considered his view decidedly one sided. I'm not sure how much stock I'd put in his recollections, genius that he is.Watch this if you want Gordon's take on what he walked into at McLaren https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wVX7jvYT5is 32 minutes in.
Again, I refer back to AC's views posted on the previous page.
skeggysteve said:
Oh dear. Have to say that makes me feel not a jot safer than I did....
REALIST123 said:
skeggysteve said:
Oh dear. Have to say that makes me feel not a jot safer than I did....
Jobs for the boys who think they are important.
At best it will just be used as advisory at worst just filed in Whitehall.
rev-erend said:
REALIST123 said:
skeggysteve said:
Oh dear. Have to say that makes me feel not a jot safer than I did....
Jobs for the boys who think they are important.
At best it will just be used as advisory at worst just filed in Whitehall.
The meeting minutes might be entertaining.
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